www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon

And though there are some who are convinced the world is flat, it is not. If you travel far enough west you'll be in the east, and vice versa. Amen

That's silly. Everyone knows you'll fall off the edge if you go too far.

Back to the original question:

If you use the Gregorian calendar for fixed feasts and the Julian calendar to calculate Pascha, I guess you get into trouble in different ways, especially with the Apostles' fast.

But if you use either the Julian calendar exclusively or the Gregorian calendar exclusively for all feasts, I don't think there is any problem. Problems only arise if you try to mix the two calendars. Right?

Apostles' Fast? What Apostles' Fast?

What calendars are we talking about exactly? Are we talking about the Julian and Gregorian calendars, or are we talking about the Julian and revised Julian calendars?

If we are talking about the Julian calendar [en.wikipedia.org] and the Gregorian calendar [en.wikipedia.org], then I don't think the Julian calendar does anything that the Gregorian calendar doesn't. In fact, the Gregorian calendar is more accurate because it doesn't lag behind the seasons.

But, if we are talking about the Julian calendar and the revised Julian calendar [en.wikipedia.org], then the Julian calendar is certainly better. The Julian calendar (like the Gregorian calendar) is an integrated whole, whereas the revised Julian calendar simply isn't (e.g. it truncates the Apostles' Fast [en.wikipedia.org]).

St. John of Kronstat Press does the best calendar. They give the references for both calendars. For example, for January 7th (Gregorian) the 7 is the large number but they do list in parenthesis that it is really December 25h. Most of the Julian calendars I've seen seem to ignore the Julian calendar date altogether and only list the Gregorian (as if Christmas on the Julian is January 7th).

Now, you want to discuss something that would be difficult? Try keeping both calendars in the same parish. St. Nicholas Cathedral (OCA) in Washington, DC does.

Yes, my understanding is that the mix creates a real problem and a clash.


I'd say that's right. And to me, that is saying that there is no issue with the typicon within the Julian calendar or within the Gregorian calendar. So the one and the same typicon holds for both calendars.

The "this calendar" is the Julian, the "other calendar" the Gregorian. [I actually didn't use the names on purpose hoping it would then not cause the usual frenzy -- foolish me.]

I'd say that's correct.

The calendar question, as discussed in Orthodox circles, is between the Julian calendar and the so called "revised" Julian Calendar. The Gregorian calendar does not even enter into the discussion. If it did however, it would be rejected as an innovation, and not be seen to provide any benefit.

Alexandr

The revised Julian calendar seems to me (and as Latin Catholic notes here too) to be just asking for trouble.

A consideration of the Gregorian calendar on its own merits would make it an obvious choice -- if it didn't have a history, and a name. So I would ask, only as a rhetorical question, why not discuss the Gregorian calendar, and why must it be considered an innovation. Sure, its date of origin, 1583, but anything now will be an innovation by that standard. Just to note here, in terms of its methodology and approach to the paschalion, the Gregorian calendar is actually much closer to the Julian calendar/paschalion than the approach of Aleppo. I say that because Aleppo was in part an Orthodox proposal (without Catholic participation), though not generally Orthodox endorsed.

The consideration of the "benefit" (or lack thereof) of the Gregorian calendar is interesting. It goes directly to the thread's subject, and the question then would be, is the Gregorian calendar in itself detrimental or simply neutral. That is, in terms of the typicon and the liturgical cycles is there any inherent problem, clash, inconsistency in the Gregorian calendar, as there is, for instance, in the revised Julian approach?

Thanks for your appraisal and summary of Orthodox discussions on the calendar issue.