www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eastern Orthodox Priests/Deacons and Roman Collars

Nor has anyone argued otherwise. But there is a serious problem in setting aside things required for salvation from things which are not. A particular appearance for clergy has indeed been "handed down"- it may not carry the same weight as the Divine Liturgy or the canon of scripture, but it is nevertheless fruit of the same tree. These particular things are not integral to salvation, but certainly a respect for the Orthodox Tradition as a whole is integral to salvation. If we start drawing lines at what is necessary and what isn't, we are pushing toward the kind of minimalism that allows for wider and disastrous "renovations." Think of all of the things in the Church which, it could be argued, are not "required for salvation" but without which the Church would be devastated.

Embatl'dSeraphim,

I appreciate all that, but it does not justify humiliating a Metropolitan in public.

But taking your post to its logical conclusion you would have to accuse all men who do not have beards and long hair of not keeping what has been "handed down". I would argue back that you are incorrectly including the 'hair culture' of another century as a fruit of the same tree that is Orthodoxy. I've seen Russians dis Greeks the same way for not having "high back" vestments. That, too, is a misunderstanding. [I won't mention a discussion I had where someone insisted that the building materials of a church needed to be the same as they were in centuries past, and that modern construction methods and (horrors!) electricity were an abomination to Orthodoxy.] Such are not pushing toward minimalism. Orthodoxy does not demand one pretends he is living in the past. An Orthodox monastic living in Texas or Brazil (where it it very hot and humid) might chose to have his riassa made from a material other then heavy wool is also not pushing towards minimalism.

I am not endorsing Western clerical dress for Eastern clergy. I support Eastern clergy dressing properly. I am just insisting that dress, beards and hair length be kept in proper perspective. It is not disrespectful to Orthodox Tradition for a man to have a short beard (or no beard) and short hair. Even the dress of the clergy comes to us from a particular culture and time, and should it develop differently in future generations such would not be an abandonment of Orthodoxy.

John

First and foremost I believe our Priests should dress in the traditional way. I for one as a young man who feels called to the Priesthood am willing (and wanting to) dress in the traditional riassa and keep my hair long and have a beard.
What I said before was applying to Orthodox priest who wear the collar and you know that they are priests and then avoid receiving a blessings.
I think that a Bishop or any clergy shouldn't smoke at all.
I don't think you should call out someone in public, especially a Bishop when you are a lay seminarian. (I am assuming that the students in the story you told where still laymen and if in major or minor orders I still think it is wrong)

I can understand the confusion in regards to the clergy in Western Collars.


The Fathers handed us down Traditions that we should follow. I don't want to judge and I apologize if I am but when we think we are more Orthodox than others because we are dressed in riassa and have beards then we are no better than the Pharisees who Jesus speaks of making their face dirty to bring attention to the fact that they are fasting. It is the inside that counts not the outside. Will God judge a Priest more severe since he wears a Roman Collar? No, I don't think he would.

We should encourage our Priests to dress in the traditional way but I for one will still get a blessing from a Priest in a collar or a riassa.

Peace and Blessings

The so-called "Roman collar" is in fact of Protestant origin. It is also the point of the expression "gentleman of the cloth" - so perhaps that should be revised to "gentleman of the plastic" nowadays.

I think it wrong to humiliate anyone - let alone a bishop - and all the more wrong to do so in front of the public. In this instance, one could think that the improperly dressed Priest began the process by taking the seminarians to task for failing to ask the blessing of an unrecognizable Metropolitan.

I'll never forget this "diamond in the rough": a Metropolitan whose name would immediately be recognized entered one of his own churches in the USA about fifty years ago to serve the Divine Liturgy. He was wearing a business suit, "Roman collar", and a secular-style hat, and smoking a cigar. In front of the Royal Doors he took off the hat, and with the hat in one hand and the cigar in the other hand he turned around to bless the congregation! I wish I were making that up but, alas, I am not.

Fr. Serge

Thanks for sharing that--I think! Not to imply that it wasn't wickedly irreverend of the Bishop, but I find the image absolutely chuckle inducing and very Dean Martin/Frank Sinatra/Rat pack-esque in style! LOL! It had to have been the sixties...(men who smoked cigars went everywhere with them--I remember this because my grandfather smoked cigars, and being a little girl at the time, it made an impression on me, because I hated their smell)

I do hope that he had the decency and reverence to atleast put the cigar out before entering the altar!



I know of a cleric in a position higher than Bishop that smokes...

Personally, I don't mind...and I don't judge because underneath the collars and rassa, these are human beings just like the rest of us. What is the difference between an almost obesely fat (obviously eats too much--even if it is fasting food) cleric covered by rassa and a slim cleric who smokes an occasional cigarette, cigar and/or enjoys the occasional glass of wine or spirits?!?

Though I neither smoke nor drink, I do not condemn others that do. If we look closely at ourselves we will all see that we harbor some prejudices to those who are not like us, or who do not think like us, or believe like us, or groom like us (beards vs. clean shaven for instance), or dress like us, or live up to standards we believe they should have (as is the case in this thread)...

Are we not all slaves to the body and the world in one way or the other? I always remind myself, therefore, that who am I to judge the other's cross and possible battles to the small delights and enjoyments of this world?

What matters more to me is how genuine and honest one is (especially a bishop or priest) with themselves and others; their love; their compassion; their knowledge of their own weaknesses; their humility; their values of looking at the world (in other words loving those who love God.. poor and rich, rather than those who love only mammon and his guises of success and wealth); their ability to see God and good in others; etc...

That being said, I will concede that a certain amount of humility must accompany those who wear the rassa in countries where it does not fit the standard mode of dress and that that is definitely a good thing...but for those who may not want to stand out that much (sometimes for the sake of their wives and children's wishes), I do not judge whatsoever...

Anyway, just my two cents from a woman's point of view, for what it is worth (and that may not be much on this forum!)

In Christ,
Alice

Orthodoxy, in its wisdom, has also been very loose in its definition of a monastic. All that is really required is the candidate take the first monastic vows before his ordination as bishop. The Council in Trullo allows for married men to be ordained bishops, provided he separates from his wife (with her consent) and both take monastic vows. Widowers can be ordained, provided they take monastic vows prior to their ordination. Laymen (like our good St. Photios the Great) can be ordained, provided they take monastic vows before ordination.

Be aware that this was not always the Orthodox Tradition--it evolved over time, mainly as a result of the increasing influence of monastics in the various Christological controveries, as well as the realization that the power of the episcopal office represented a temptation to married men with children. Over the centuries, there were many married bishops numbered among the saints, including St. Gregory of Nyssa and his father.

Also remember that the requirement for bishops to be selected from among monastic ranks is principally specific to the Eastern or Byzantine Orthodox Tradition. Practice differs among both the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Churches, neither one of which accepted Trullo.

Our Fathers among the Saints, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nanzianzen, and John Chrysostom, among others, were proud of their Romanitas, and did not feel it inconsistent with their Christianity. Like all good Romans, they bathed regularly in the Roman style (the Holy and God-Beloved Emperors built many a public bath in Constantinople, beginning with St. Constantine, and private baths were ubiquitous in the homes of the elite, including the palace of the Archbishop of Constantinople).

I've even heard that in Kyivan Rus' people had standards of cleanliness not known in the West (or in the East, after the Mongol Conquest) for centuries thereafter. And cleanliness really is next to godliness. If the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it behooves us all to keep the temple clean and in good repair.

Via the intermediate stage of "gentleman of the cellulose"?

The main reason for the introduction of clerical suits etc etc was to copy the Protestant clergy's street clothes at a time when outward signs of Catholicity and Orthodoxy were totally unacceptable in Protestant countries. Cardinal Newman made a note of the change in his time in Britain. The warning was given to change, or they would be made to change. Seems some had been rubbing the Protestant nose in it in the mid 1800s and they were having none of it. Laws had already been passed banning the use by Catholics of the old names of pre Reformation diocese. Over night the habits and cassocks ceased to be worn in public. Not for nothing did the Benedictine Abbess of Stanbrook have the nuns take walks each afternoon where the local villagers could see them and put any concerns they may have had about the nuns to rest. The advice to lay low was taken up all over the British Empire and in other countries where it was thought a good idea to be seen as clergy but not to push the Catholic/Orthodox boat out in public. Bishops and religious superiors when they passed dress codes for the diocese or orders made it clear what was expected to be worn in public and in private. No one was to rock the status quo boat. Happily times have changed and clergy can please themselves. I think a few find that given people have migrated all over the planet to different climates types as well. They find there are occasions to dress modestly but in lighter clothes to suit the occasions clergy find themselves.

Except, in the time of Newman, Anglican clergy tended to wear what looked very much like traditional Catholic clerical attire. It was the low church Methodists and Non-Conformists who wore street clothing.


Except, again, by the mid-1800s, Catholic Emancipation was a fait accompli, and Catholics were becoming prominent throughout English society (indeed, within the aristocracy, Catholicism was perfectly acceptable if a bit eccentric). Now, Irish was another matter entirely, and it really did not matter if one was Protestant or Catholic--though, again, exceptions were made for the aristocracy (though the Irish peerage was never on par with the English peerage--except where the Duke of Wellington was concerned, of course).

In the United States, it was a very different story. In the first place, Episcopalianism never had the "catholic" pretension of the Anglo-Catholics, and tended to be "broad" in its outlook. Second, low-church reformed denominations tended to predominate in many parts of the country, and these harbored deep anti-Catholic sentiments, which were further inflamed by mass immigration from Catholic Ireland and later from Italy and Poland. It's in the United States that the move towards assimilationism became strongest, and here that street clothes became de rigeur for the Catholic clergyman abroad.

I conclude from this discussion of ecclesiastical haberdashery and millenary that all else is well in your Churches! Oh, how I envy you!

I do agree that publicly reprimanding a hierarch is not commendable.




Since when are beards things of the past?


That really depends on what motivates the changes. If the motivation is to make Orthodox priests indistinguishable from other clergymen, the development is very problematic.

Interesting....



On Mt. Athos today, no monk swims, despite the Aegean below them being the most beautiful, sparkling, and friendly sea for swimming (no undertow, no waves, no deadly sea creatures, etc) that probably exists on earth... Given the often viciously hot sun and heat of Greece in the summer months, looking at the sea God graced to surround the landscape of the Holy Mountain with, and not being able to enjoy its enveloping cool comfort must truly be a great self denial, along with all the others they have espoused.

Stuart:

Been there. When I was serving in the Catholic chapel during my college days, I wore a heavy, black wool cassock with surplice. I'd worn shorts and a tee shirt to chaepl with sandals to compensate and still almost passed out.

BOB

If I drive by and my priest is mowing the lawn, I'll *know* the heat has gotten to one of us--the rectory isn't old enough to be allowed a front lawn! To mow, he'd have to go up the street to Sunset Park

Oh, and he generally wears a "Theotokos" T-shirt when not at liturgy, visiting the hospital/shutins, etc.

hawk