www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eastern Orthodox Priests/Deacons and Roman Collars

Alexandr,

While I agree that this was a 'potentially loaded' topic, it has not turned out to be so - with forum members expressing diverse opinions in reasoned and polite exchange. I strongly suggest that your opinions could and should have been expressed in the same fashion.

Many years,

Neil

BTW - while on the subject of 'dog collars' It's quite an acceptable term over here

The clergy themselves - both Catholic and Protestant use the term .

RE: dog collars.

I heard a Roman Catholic priest give a presentation to a group of young people. He started by saying that many wonder why priests wear collars. He took off his collar and said "Simple: it says right here on the back 'Keeps away fleas and ticks, replace every 6 months.'"

Dave

Speaking of "dog collars", when I was growing up the pastor of the nearby RC parish had a big, black German Shepherd. The dog was very friendly and attended every Mass this priest celebrated. The dog had a white flea collar. So the dog and his priestly servant matched in dress.

Pulling out of dark parish parking lots in the dead of night, it occurred to me that priests actually need those little white tabs in the back, not in the front, of their collars. It would cut down the risk of nasty accidents.

Sorry, no offense intended. That is what I have always heard them referred to as by my Catholic priest friends and acquaintances.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/priest+collars?qsrc=2446

Main Entry: clerical collar
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: white collar worn by members of the clergy
Synonyms: Roman collar, dog collar, priest's collar
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Copyright © 2009 by the Philip Lief Group.
Cite This Source

Alexandr

I must say I like the collar of the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (F.SS.R.), formerly the Transalpine Redemptorists.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zjKxCA1O-...p1f-38oWg7s/s400/Bp+Moran%27s+Mass+8.jpg

I'm afraid you'll have to cut and paste the URL.

I don't think I'm called to the presbyterate or the diaconate (nor can I even grow a beard!), so AFAIC what my local priest wears when not at church, when driving or wherever is none of my business.

But just as a point of fact, at one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries the monks did indeed wear cassock and skoufos while doing kitchen or construction work - I even recall a monk driving a bobcat loader around all day in monastic garb. As I recall the cassocks for those doing construction work were a bit shorter than the ones you'd see at liturgy. And some of them were VERY ratty. They of course wore trousers underneath the cassock.

My recollection of Athos is the same - except that much of the construction or kitchen work is done by hired hands from various East European countries.

My, my, such pillars of monasticism. My Babushka would have dragged them out by their beards(if they had any), and would have had them doing pokloni until the cows came home.

An example of what is wrong with Orthodoxy in this country. Time for an extended vacation in Solovki.

Alexandr

"Were they taking baths in 9th century Russia? No,they were not! Is outrage."

(And yes, they had wonderful beards, and were wonderful bishops. More focus on the internal, less on the superficial, will serve Orthodoxy better.)

I related this story here on the Forum quite a few years ago. When I was a young seminarian, I along with several other seminarians were returning back to the Monastery from Synod in New York. We had stopped in a suburb of New York to grab something to eat. We were dressed as seminarians, i.e., pedrazniki, beards and long hair. As we were eating we noticed what appeared to us to be 2 Catholic priests in the next booth, drinking coffee. They were dressed in clerical suits with collars, and one was smoking. We nodded to them in greeting and continued our conversation. Our food came, and we prayed and started to eat. One of the "priests" came over and loudly berated us for not asking the "Metropolitan" to bless our meals. We were taken aback and I think that all of us answered as one; "What Metropolitan?" The "priest" indicated the Gentleman sitting there smoking. "Don't you recognize Metropolitan XXX when you see him?" asked the priest. None of us had ever seen a priest, much less a Metropolitan dressed as he was and smoking besides, so we truthfully answered him - no. The boldest amongst us, who shall go nameless (Hrrumph!) spoke up and said that had the Metropolitan in question looked and acted like one we would have been more than glad to receive his blessings, but dressed and acting as he was, we had assumed, as any Orthodox Christian would, that the hierarch in question was something other than Orthodox. The priest than asked who our bishop was, as I am sure that he thought that we were from St Vladimir's. Upon answering Metropolitan Philaret, the 2 quickly put out their smokes and left without so much as a good night.

So Nelson, were we wrong in what we did. Or should we hold fast to that which was handed down to us?

Alexandr

Where in the Ladder of Divine Ascent does it discuss bathing suits and hot tubs? Where are the swimming pools on Athos? Is there a hidden casino that I am not aware of at St Catherines on Mt Sinai?

Bishops who are Monks would serve Orthodoxy better than overgrown schoolboys playing part time bishop.

Alexandr

Preserving what has been handed down does not necessarily include styles of dress, beards and hair length.

I can agree that had the Metropolitan you referenced been dressed as you expected you would have recognized him at least as an Orthodox bishop even if you did not recognize him (no sin in not recognizing exactly who he might have been even if he had been dressed as you expected).

But a particular dress, long hair and beards are not integral to Orthodox theology, and they are not required for salvation.

I say this as one who supports proper Eastern dress, with reasonable allowances for the local culture (we know there are some cultures were black is just a color one cannot use).

I would say that your friend was disrespectful and un-Orthodox. He could have chosen to respond politely by simply stating that he did not recognize the Metropolitan and invited his blessing, or if he wanted to make a point he could have stated that he did notice the Metropolitan as clergy but thought him to be a Catholic priest because of the way he was dressed. To take him to task and say he was not acting like a Metropolitan because he did not meet your idea of an Orthodox dress code was indeed disrespectful.

And just what did you accomplish? The Metropolitan and those he was with surely walked away thinking your group were a bunch of ignorant seminarians. And you walked away condemning them in your hearts. But if you had been more polite and responded in a manner along the lines I indicated you might have planted a seed.

John,
According to Orthodox Tradition ALL bishops are monastics, first and foremost. And when a monastic departs from the Angelic way, it is for his superior to correct him. And when the monastic is a bishop, his superior is the flock over which he presides, which has to remain vigilant to correct the leader when they veer too far to the right or left. To chastise an errant monk for dressing as to cause scandal with the laity and for smoking the Devil's incense is to the benefit of the chastised.

Alexandr

Alexandr,

I strongly disagree. It has nothing to do with him or your group being monastic. Your friend was impolite to another Christian. I support the right of even a layman to correct a bishop when a bishop is wrong (the canons actually require it). Publicly humiliating him in a restaurant is a very wrong thing to do. Your friend could have responded with humor and politeness and gotten his point across, and maybe planted a seed. Better yet, he could have simply had enough humility and maturity to simply apologize for not knowing who he was, asked a blessing, and then contacted him privately to discuss the matter. The scandal your friend caused was far greater then any scandal the Metropolitan had by dressing in as he did. And you probably accomplished nothing as he dismissed your group.

John