www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern Catholics and Papal Infallibility

I just want to point out, in case I haven't been clear, that while I do accept Vatican I's teaching, I don't accept the rigorous "ultra-montane" interpretations of it. The Papacy remains an organ of the Church, and Papal Infallibility is simply an expression of the infallibility of the Church. While I think it's incorrect for people to try and make the definition of Vatican I "disappear", I think it's equally incorrect to insist on the most heavy-handed interpretations. I think the Melkite Patriarch's addendum to the decree is worthy and necessary, and it's important to note that the addendum was not contradicted nor removed by the Pope.

I also believe that this infallibility was recognized in a certain way in the first millenium, and that the Fathers East and West attest to it. This isn't the same as saying that all the prerogatives Rome has claimed since that time are valid, or a faithful development from first millenium praxis.

Peace and God bless!

Are you saying that the non-Chalcedonians and the Assyrian Church of the East are part of the Church and possess the fullness of truth? Do you believe that the Church of Christ "subsists" in them (in the sense conveyed by Lumen Gentium)?

Yes. Don't you?

Since I believe the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon to be ecumenical, no.

So then how do you justify Orthodox who disagree with you? I know many who say that the Coptic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church possesses the same faith and I believe many high level Orthodox theologians also believe this. They refer to it as "two families". The above statement is signed by both Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs.

So Orthodox can disagree on if the Oriental Churches are "heretical" and still be in communion with one another. This of course contradicts Ecumenical Councils. So to be Orthodox one has to accept all teachings of the Ecumenical Councils? So how are they then still Orthodox when the refer to the Oriental as sister Churches and the two churches as "two families" of Orthodox Churches?

But Catholics of the East can't disagree with Rome on how certain Latin Dogmas (which we have shown are open for discussion as the Holy See has instructed) and practices relate to the East? We can't understand Papal Primacy or infallibility in different ways than our Roman brothers and sister? Or see Vatican I as a local council?

To me these issues are not black and white and there is a grey era. In my mind its nothing more than the Royal path of the Fathers.

When we deal in complete absolutes (now there are somethings that are absolutes- Christ humanity and divinity but we can disagree or use different terms to understand how this great mystery applies to our particular Apostolic Church, as long as Christ humanity and divinity are not denied) and not allow a since of moderation and understanding we become fanatics and we hurt the Church of Christ.

See Orthodox Unity website- http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state07.php

Give us time, Nelson. :-)

It took the Roman Catholic Church 1,600 years to realise that it had made an awful mistake with the Copts. Rome removed the Copts from communion with the Pope and communion with the Church because of what they now say was simply a semantic misunderstanding by Rome.

It will take the Orthodox a while for the various Orthodox Churches to re-assess their own understandings of this matter and the theology involved. Hopefully it won't be another 1,600 years but it will still take a lot of time and careful investigation and much prayer.

Two Patriarchates, Alexandria and Antioch, are now convinced that the ancient understandings of Coptic Christology were incorrect. The other Orthodox Churches will have to reach their own decisions. Eventually it will require a Pan-Orthodox Council to make a decision and decide to enter into communion with the Coptic Church (and its sister Churches.) In the meantime we are all lumbered with the effects of long long ago.

Give us time, Nelson. :-)

It took the Roman Catholic Church 1,600 years to realise that it had made an awful mistake with the Copts. Rome removed the Copts from communion with the Pope and communion with the Church of Rome because of what they now say was simply a semantic misunderstanding by Rome.

It will take the Orthodox a while for the various Orthodox Churches to re-assess their own understandings of this matter and the theology involved. Hopefully it won't be another 1,600 years but it will still take a lot of time and careful investigation and much prayer.

Quite true. And I have personally heard a very prominent Orthodox bishop and theologian address an audience of Coptic Christians as "my fellow Orthodox", so the view that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox share the same understanding of the relationship between human and the divine in Christ is fairly widespread. Indeed, almost two decades ago, the eminent Father John Meyendorff came to the same conclusion.

On the other side of the ledger, similar Joint Christological Statements exist between the Catholic Church and both the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East. The relationship with the Church of the East is even closer than that, since formal commincatio in sacris was established between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church. Under this agreement, Assyrians and Chaldean Catholics may freely receive all the sacraments from each other without prejudice, and the only thing that keeps it from being full communion is the failure of the clergy to concelebrate or commemorate each other's hierarchs in the diptyches.

But you see that Embatl'dSeraphim will not allow any other interpretation except the one he puts on it. So we're all stuck. Rome - and us - all must accept Catholic Teaching ONLY as Embatl'dSeraphim tells us we can. And we must understand his posts here as he means them, not according the words he uses. No hope for a decent conversation in that for someone who calls others intellectually dishonest but in a way that he can claim he did not. I am now wondering why he chose the title "Embattled". He is certainly not an angel nor does he speak in an angelic way. The Forum is not a place for him to do battle.

Very reasonable. One must consider that a very large part of the Orthodox (indeed, all Christians especially in the East) have spent most of the last millennium suffering, be it under the yoke of Islam or communism. It takes time to recover.

It seems to me that the wounds of separation of East and West have not and cannot heal completely until the issues are resolved. At best, they are just scabbed over but the wound is still there waiting for proper treatment.

I haven't kept up on this and am not sure what's being said. Can links to the pertinent declarations or joint-statements or responses of the various churches be provided? What is different in the stated positions between Rome, and Alexandria and Antioch?

I would submit that it is their ongoing persecution which has pushed them towards reconciliation and unity. As Samuel Johnson said, "When a man is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind". The Churches of the Middle East, faced with potential extinction, have had to turn towards each other for mutual support, and this in turn has led to mutual knowledge and understanding that makes reconciliation possible.

My comment was simply based off the (admittedly very nebulous) statement linked by Nelson

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state07.php

[quote=StuartK]
I would submit that it is their ongoing persecution which has pushed them towards reconciliation and unity. As Samuel Johnson said, "When a man is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind". [/quote]

You may be right, Stuart. As Fr Sergey pointed out, it was during the times of Communist persecution that the Russian Orthodox Church trained and ordained 500 Greek Catholic priests in the Ukraine.

Does anyone else see irony in the possibility that the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church may be in communion with the Oriental Orthodox Churches before they are in communion with each other?