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Benedicite!

Father Ambrose,

I would like to ask you what the state of the Saints is after death. Are they already in heaven or are they still waiting to enter therein? Also, how can someone waiting to enter hell still be saved?

Hmmmm.... what you describe sounds very much like a journey to me! While "awaiting" would be a concept we use (we don't know anything about time in the next life) it is a journey. I use "journey" in the spiritual sense, as the soul would first undergo parital judgement, then the intermediate state, then final Judgement, and then heaven or hell.

Again, it depends on how you look at it. In Eastern thought even a pure soul going right to heaven would have a journey, if only an upward one, towards the Light of Heaven.

The journey of the soul begins at the moment of conception. For Christians, with Baptism and the other Mysteries to cleanse and fortify the journey towards the Heavenly Jerusalem encompasses a lifetime. The journey does not end until the final Judgment, with either heaven or hell.

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-


"Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

Here is the original article ...
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

I suppose that when it is seen in that light the journey is never-ending. The progression into theosis is eternal and without limit or end.

Does not theosis continue beyond this life and into the next? How can it not, given that no creature can every fully apprehend the nature of his Creator? Do we not, in the Divine Liturgy, offer up our prayers for "most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary"? If the Mother of God is still undergoing theosis, why should not the rest of us?

Yikes, no! The phrase you have quoted is not a prayer for her. It commences "Calling to remembrance our most holy..." There are NO prayers FOR the Mother of God but only prayers TO her.

Interesting question! Here is one relevant quote from the Divine Liturgy:
It certainly is an interesting question. We know that even the Mother of God was in need of a Savior. Perhaps an off-shoot discussion?

Taft has written at length about this, and his conclusion is the prayer--and similar prayers in other Oriental rites--is indeed directed towards God for the Theotokos.

As the prayer of commemoration is presented in the Ruthenian Slavonic recension, no other interpretation is possible.

I think all the translations are similar.

It is certainly interesting. I, a sinner, can ask Father Ambrose (and everyone reading this) to pray for me. He can pray for me and, in turn, ask me (and everyone else) to pray for him. Can those in heaven - including the Mother of God - do the same?

On a humorous note, I can certainly envision the Mother of God speaking to St. John the Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist: "Remember me in your prayers, tonight, John, wait until you hear about the miracle I'm going to ask Him to preform!"

Yes, this example is silly. But one can think of valid reasons for praying for someone in heaven. Maybe not all of them are silly?

I think we may need to look at some liturgical commentaries to get the correct meaning of this and other references to Mary in the Liturgy, otherwise we shall have to confess that not only does Mary need prayer but that she is also a woman of sinfulness.

After communion as the priest places the particles from the diskos/paten into the precious Blood he prays:

"Wash away, O lord, the sins of all those commemorated here..." and the first particle which he places into the Blood is the triangular piece which commemorates the Mother of God.

Yikes! so there we have it, a liturgical teaching of the sinfulness of Mary!!

Not so fast! That one needs prayer is not necessarily a statement that one is sinful. Be Orthodox and hold off on any conclusions until the issue is fully examined.

I would agree with this if it is seen as a prayer, from within eternity, for the salvation of the Mother of God through the death of Christ on the Cross which she needed just as much as any of the other "patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs..." spoken of in the prayer of offering. In other words it is an anamnesis of an event which took place for her 2000 years ago and not an ongoing need for prayer for her.

Is Taft's writing on this available on the Net? It would be interesting to read.

The second does not follow from the first.

The prayer is: "Wash away the sins of all those commemorated here..." and the first particle to go into the Chalice is that commemorating the Mother of God.

I agree that this does NOT mean that Mary is a sinful woman but on the face of it this is what the text is saying. I brought this up to show that we must also be careful not to see the earlier prayer which offers the Sacrifice for the sake of Mary (and the prophets,etc.) as teaching us that she is in need of our prayers today.

As the Liturgy is celebrated in kairos, not chronos, the meaning of the text perdures for eternity. What it must mean, therefore, is our prayers are efficacious for all those who have fallen asleep, because our assimilation into the divine nature can never be fully complete until the Parousia.