www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Aerial Toll Houses and Seraphim Rose

Well, it is a new thing for me to learn that Catholics pray FOR the Mother of God but you seem quite insistent on it and so I accept what you are saying although I confess it seems very odd to me. Certainly if parishioners were to say that they prayed FOR Mary I would forbid it, and if they pressed the point I would take the matter to the bishop and seek his ruling on whether it is permissible or not.

This prayer is not in the Ruthenian Recension (and there the commemorative particles are put in the cup by the deacon before the communion of the people). [Card. Tisserant, who oversaw the commission that worked on that recension, had this to say to the Ruthenian bishops:"1. In the first place, the existence of a special Ruthenian Recension has been ascertained older than that which is commonly called the vulgate, because it has not been corrected as this on the Greek Editions printed at the beginning of the seventeenth century. The Ruthenian Recension, then, inasmuch as it is concordant with older texts, deserves to be preferred."]

I may have the wrong context, but "Calling to remembrance our most holy..." is not the wording at the prayer I have in mind, the "preamble" to "Dostojno jest'..." Am I at the wrong place?

Not Roman Catholics, but certainly Eastern Catholics, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox and the Armenian Apostolic Churches. Take, for instance, this passage from Fr. Robert Taft's essay, "Eastern Presuppositions" and Western Liturgical Renewal:


This creates something of a paradox, Father: it seems that you would side with the Latin Scholastics against the authentic Tradition of the Byzantine and Armenian Churches both. Unless, of course, for some reason Father Taft has made an horrific error which somehow escaped the notice of his many academic and theological peers?

Could you give examples, maybe from Prayerbooks, of prayers FOR the Virgin Mary? Which prayers for her do you use personally?

I have to confess that I have never, not even once in my life, prayed FOR her and I have never seen such a prayer in any Prayerbooks.

Perhaps Fr Serge can come in and help us out, he may have seen such prayers in Old Believer material?

Yes, he has.

One needs of course to remember, (as I just did :-) TWO important things as concerns Saint John Chrysostom and his Liturgy and the sinfulnes of the Mother of God.

1....... Chrysostom believed that Mary sinned. He believed she was capable of sinning and that in fact she did so. This belief was eventually rejected by the Church. So for Taft to say that the Byzantine Anaphora of Chrysostom had it right and the Latins were simply wrong is simply an anachronism by the good Archimandrite. It was, as the Church professes, Chrysostom who had it wrong.

2....... Chrysostom did not believe in the assumption of Mary. In his times (the 4th century) the belief was unknown. It was not known until the late 5th century when the Emperor and Empress of Constantinople demanded that Juvenal the Patriarch of Jerusalem send her body to Constantinople. At that time Juvenal had to reveal that the body did not exist on earth and that the Jerusalem clergy believed her body had been taken to heaven.

Brave man!

.

Chrysostom believed Mary was vain for attempting to speak with Jesus at Capernaum, but it is clear that he does not consider this in the way you are ascribing to him. If Orthodox moral theology were applied, we would say that Mary's attempt was due to human frailty (i.e., inability to perceive what Jesus intended. If ignorance is to be considered a sin, then, of course, Mary is a sinner (and was from the beginning, since at the Annunciation she expressed surprise and doubt). But ignorance is an inherent part of human nature, since we are not omnicient as is God. This merely reinforces my statement that prayers for Mary--and all the saints--are justified because the process of perfection continues beyond the tomb for all mankind.


Not true. It was already being celebrated in Jerusalem in the late 4th century. It is only our earliest manuscripts that can be dated to around the time of Ephesus, but as always, things get put into writing long after they have become common currency.

If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of

1. St. Andrew of Crete,
died 726

2. St. John Damascene,
died 749

3. St. Modestus of Jerusalem
died 634

In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first.
died 594

The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:

St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.

Source :: Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

-----------------
However we are diverging, again!

What I am interested in is having a look at prayers FOR the Virgin Mary, either from Latin or Eastern Catholic prayerbooks, akathists, etc. I am keen to see what is being prayed for on her behalf.

Saint John Chrysostom's comment on Matthew 12:46-50:

"For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she hath power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach."

John Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew

Sounds like he said what I said.

I am unsure where you are going with this discussion? Are you saying that you pray FOR Mary because she was guilty of personal sin in her life?

It would be an enormous help if you could present us with some examples of prayers FOR Mary from Prayebooks and such like so that we can see why you pray FOR her and in what manner.

Current edition of the celebrant's book, p.77, the introduction to the It is truly proper:

Bolding original.

We offer the sacrifice for all the departed in faith... especially Mary, the Theotokos. For, remember, the DL is "outside of time"...

On this topic, it might be worth looking into Nicholas Cabasilas' Commentary on the Divine Liturgy, especially section 33, "The prayers after the sacrifice. Why the priest commemorates the saints and especially the all-holy Virgin Mary", and section 49, "Against those who maintain that the commemoration of the saints in the liturgy is a prayer to God on their behalf."

Cabasilas states that of the two purposes of the liturgical sacrifice, supplication and thanksgiving, only the second applies to the saints. From the first section:

[quote]That is why the priest asks for nothing on behalf of the saints; rather, he asks that he may be assisted by them in his prayers; because, as we have said, for them the gifts are offered not in supplication and thanksgiving.[quote]

This seems to have been a matter of comment even in the 14th century, since he begins section 49 as follows:

[quote]In this manner, many have been led into error: they regard the commemoration of the saints not as a thanksgiving, but as a prayer to God on their behalf. I do not know where they got such an idea, for neither the facts nor the words of the liturgy support such an assertion.[/quote]

(both quotes are from the translation published by SVS Press)

Now, Cabasilas does mention that our prayers assist those who have died to reach perfection; but he does not seem to consider perfection in the kingdom of heaven as something that can be attained, rather than as the goal of an eternal striving, as in, say, Saint Gregory of Nyssa. In the latter context, we COULD justifiably pray for the saints. But as far as the liturgy goes, this author acknowledges some controversy over the commemoration of the saints in the Divine Liturgy, and explains it in a way that does NOT involve praying FOR the saints.

In Christ,
Jeff

Do you also agree then that we ought to pray FOR Mary? Do you believe that Mary is in need of prayer from us?

Certainly, the Divine Liturgy is outside of time but that doesn't mean that Mary exists simultaneously in both her heavenly glory and also in the time and state prior to the Crucifixion and Resurrection when she needed salvation from her Son. She is not simultaneously in the womb of her mother, in the Temple with Symeon, on the donkey with Joseph, and on the right side of her Son in Heaven.

I am hoping that Stuart can show us prayers from Catholic Prayerbooks where prayers for Mary are given.

No personal or paraliturgical prayer supersedes the liturgy of the Church, which is the fullest and most perfect expression of the Church's beliefs and rule of prayer.