www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News In Defense of Cantors, Prostopinije and the like

Slava Isusu Christu!

I another thread there has been much discussion regarding cantoring and prostopinije.
my comments are not specifically directed unless named.

Rather than quoting the entire verbiage (bordering on libel) of Frank C. I would like to understand why he feels so strongly against something "new" that is actually more than a century old.

I strongly disagree with his assesment that the troparia alone are an hour long! If so, the entire liturgy would take all day! :rolleyes: I have been to Russian Orthodox OCS liturgies where it literally did take an hour to get to the gospel reading. This being with every conceivable verse of all three antiphons being sung, all the troparia, kontakia and several verses for the Prokimenon and Alleluia. Ruthenian liturgies are rarely over 90 minutes including a sermon.

I am a cantor, I endeavour to sing the liturgy properlyand am still learning. I love it when the congregation sings. However, it does take time, perseverence, patience, more patience, more time to teach a "new" way of singing. Even during the short time I have been cantoring, there have been changes apart from the "new" music. Sometimes, I get upset with the way other cantors sing but I must remind myself that if I am to be critical of others, I should also be critical of myself. Perhaps Frank C. should try learning the new material, sing it to his liking and try leading the congregation.

Frank C. If you are talking of petitions, the down side is that NOBODY will wish to be a cantor with such a negative attitude existing within the parish!!!

I have a copy of the 'grey book'that i remember from my youth.Years back that is what was used in our parish. every sunday, it was tone 4 alleluia it seemed. then we strated using the blue pew book. Wow, new tones to learn! still later cantor John Vernoski's handouts in the hands of the parishioners! all through this the congregation asks for MORE MUSIC SHEETS!!!!
( I also have many other texts with seldom used and quite beautiful arrangements for the liturgy)

Through those years, It puzzled me why the english settings were markedly different from the OCS music. I had grown up with the settings from Byzantine Liturgical Chant and the 'grey book' which have some mentally, musically wrenching arrangements. The newer settings do the tropars, kondaks, samohlasen, podoben tones much help in conveying the feel of the original OCS settings. Some of the settings are particular to Papp and I tend to favor Bokshai/Sokol, though I still like Bortniansky, Vedela, Starouvsky arrangements.

I am familiar with the "new" liturgical music. I have sung it with many of the cantors at the Seminary's Metropolitan Cantor Institute over tha last several years. There are some things I would change, but that gets into technical minutae.

It doesn't help the ArchCathedral has what I would call 'dead' acoustics which can make a liturgy seem long even with the best choir in the world. :rolleyes: (yes, I have sung there).

Cantors, sometimes it may be well to relax somewhat and not try to change things too quickly for it would seem that some parishioners will object. I hear from disgruntled parishioners about using "too much slavonic" if I sing a single verse of a Marian hymn in slavonic after the liturgy! Some people will not be satisfied.

After all this rant, I will need to buy an asbestos ant- flame suit!
Discover, learn, live!!!


Steve Petach

P.S. it took me almost an hour to calm down and compose this so I would not come across as condecening as I was first inclined to be. Forgive me!!!

Dear Cantor Steve,

Your experiences are mine. Excellent points.

To all,

Personally, I enjoyed singing with all the new deacon students at our seminary chapel last week. We came from all places in our country/Metropolia and were able to sing our chant according to some who may lable it "new." The acoustics in the chapel is excellent and one doesn't have to shout or use a microphone. Several of the students began to harmonize. Divine Liturgy, matins and vespers sounded beautiful. Of course, there can always exist those small details that may end up being done differently in a parish setting only because the cantor has his/her preference. But the music was good. The notes only serve as a guide, and any cantor worth his/her salt can raise or lower the notes to match the congregation's abilities. I didn't count any 100+ notes for any Alleluia or Prokeimenon. I've heard longer Alleluias in Latin Churches though!

Many have become critical experts of the "new" (read: old news) music and our Prostopinije, but have failed to apply the same scrutiny to the adulterated music of the second half of the last century. Maybe that petition should be a sign-up sheet for a Cantor Institute?

But given the fact that half of the Archeparchy is technically unfit for our worship, how can anyone expect our chant to find a home there? Sorry for being so critical, but I can't muster any sympathy. The only liturgical experience I remembered was attending a parish in W. PA a few years back and offering my son, who was four back then, to receive communion. The priest's hands shook nervously that I thought he was going to drop the chalice (they didn't do infant communion). But our chant, like the restoration of infant communion, will take education and a willingness to learn. I've known clergy who left their eparchies for elsewhere because they (read: them, not the church) couldn't accept infant communion. Technically, they'd rather continue to excommunicate the little ones Jesus loved.

Anyway, none of the real cantors I grew up with used the gray pew books or black Byzantine Chant notebook. They came from the old school (they learned from the Professors) that did not accept the chop-shop cantor books that came out after the 50s. We sang from Sokol's liturgy book (or the cantor's memory of the Prostopinije) since liturgies were still being celebrated in OCS. I didn't hear an English liturgy until I was in highschool. Cyrillic texts were everywhere. My first liturgies that I cantored were out of the Sokol book. Sokol stuck closer to the Prostopinije of 1906. The melodies were nicer back then and I still get requests from the laity to bring back those melodies. Those melodies are found today in the "new" music. Thank God!

It boils down to the good of the Church community versus individuals' personal spiritualities (and pride).

God bless!
Cantor Joe Thur

I have three things to say about Cantoring.

1. I've never heard one sing worse than I do.

2. I've never met one who knows less about liturgical music than I do.

3. I know that they all have more courage than I do, to get up there and lead a congregation.

Keep on keepin' on, guys! Some of us appreciate your work.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Since nowadays in the USA prostopinije is mostly sung in English, it might be appropriate to speak English in a reasonably standard form. "Cantor" is a noun, not a verb - the corresponding verb is "to chant". There is in fact a verb "to canter", but it refers to an activity not usually recommended in a church building. About 35 years ago I happened to meet someone newly arrived from the Uzhhorod region who was quite an enthusiast for prostopinije. To my amazement, without a book in front of him, he was able to chant, from memory, virtually everything in Bokshaj exactly as written - something I had never heard before. Has anybody investigated the chant situation in Uzhhorod these days? I haven't, though I have heard the Uzhhorod cathedral choir (they're well worth hearing). Incognitus

Actually, the strength of the English language is its elasticity and remarkable ability to absorb new concepts.

The verb "to chant," after all, doesn't mean "to lead a chant."

But if you use cantor as a verb, it does mean that specific task. Cantoring is the act of leading chant.

--Tim Cuprisin

Strangely enough, here in Scotland our Cantors in the RC Church actually cant

Here in America, most Cantors in RC Churches can't. :p

Actually, I was very impressed on a recent visit to an RC Church. The organist had been hurt in a car accident, and the Cantor had to lead an "inorganic" Mass. He did rather well.

--Steve wrote: Rather than quoting the entire verbiage (bordering on libel) of Frank C. I would like to understand why he feels so strongly against something "new" that is actually more than a century old.--

The truth is never libel.

I am upset with the new music because no one can sing it or understand what is being sung when the cantor sings it.

--Steve wrote: Perhaps Frank C. should try learning the new material, sing it to his liking and try leading the congregation.--

Why? What is wrong with the music we have been singing for the last 30-40 years? Everyone knows the liturgy from memory. What is so bad about it that it needs a total rewrite?

--Steve wrote: am familiar with the "new" liturgical music. I have sung it with many of the cantors at the Seminary's Metropolitan Cantor Institute over tha last several years. There are some things I would change, but that gets into technical minutae.--

The cantors school has been running for five years now. How many new cantors have graduated and are competently cantoring in our parishes? None. This is because no one likes the new music and everyone finds it unsingable.

Mmmm I know what you mean though - actually very few have the ability to cant - most just try and sing A good cantor is worth more than his/her weight in gold. They are treasures to be cherished but we seem to be back to the old old question of how to encourage the congregation to learn and join in . This is not just an Eastern problem.

Anhelyna- the lopsided Latin, who can sing but can't cant

On this general topic, I might suggest that everyone read Thomas Day's delightful book "Why Catholics Can't Sing". Enjoy!
Incognitus

Dear Incognitus'

you said: "To my amazement, without a book in front of him, he was able to chant, from memory, virtually everything in Bokshaj exactly as written "

I can believe this. The 1906 Irmologion was not designed to actually be used when leading a service. None of the Irmologia (and there are still a lot of them extant) were intended for this use. They were desinged/intended to be memorized, and once memorized, to be applied to the appropriate texts (yes, the same melody would be applied to several different texts, except for samopodoben/automelon melodies). The 1906 Irmologion is almost impossible to use in a service, but easy to memorize.

Well after spending a frustrating 30 minutes writing a detailed reply, only to have the software bounce it, i've decided that I am being told to let this issue rest for tonight even though it bothers me that people like Frank C. are so opinionated that they will never change evenn when faced with a compelling reply.

Since "no one" is all inclusive and therefore if "no one" can sing this new music, the cantor you don't like and myself are to be included as "no one" though we can sing the new music......Arrrgh no use arguing with that logic.

Steve

Frank,

Can't and won't are two different things.

Joe

--Steve wrote: Since "no one" is all inclusive and therefore if "no one" can sing this new music, the cantor you don't like and myself are to be included as "no one" though we can sing the new music......Arrrgh no use arguing with that logic.--

�No one� includes all the people of the cathedral parish. That junk has been used here for a long time now and no one can sing it. It has also been used in the �Metropolitan Cantors School� for five years and has not found success in a single parish.

--Joe Thur wrote: Frank, Can't and won't are two different things. Joe --

You are correct. The people tried very hard to work with this cantor and learn the music he wrote. It�s not that they won�t learn something new. They can�t learn to sing something that is unsingable.

What is wrong with the music we have been singing for the last 30-40 years? Everyone knows the liturgy from memory. What is so bad about it that it needs a total rewrite?

Frank,

You say " not in a single parish". how do you get your information?
If "no one" includes all the people of the cathedral parish, do you by extension of that logic exclude the cantor? If so, how unchristian!

For the last 30-40 years people LEARNED the then new english translation. Prior to then, the liturgy was in Slavonic. When the new english music was published, it was quite different than the original slavonic. With those changes the parishioners could and did learn how to sing the liturgy in english, so why should it be different for relatively small changes of resetting the translation to the original music today?
Do you just sing the liturgy by memory with thinking of what the liturgy means. If so then the liturgy becomes just a part of a weekly routine with no real meaning.

Mirom Hospodu pomolimsja!


Steve