www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Aerial Toll Houses and Seraphim Rose

It's a long way from there to a full-blown medieval doctrine of purgatory. 2 Macc 12:46 can be taken, together with its rule of prayer, as the Church's theologia. Everything else, whether purgatory or toll houses, or whatever, is an elaboration on theologia, and so constitutes theoria.

I'd lile to comment if I may, for those who are not familiar with the context.

What had happened was that many of the dead Jewish soldiers were found to have small idols in their clothing. They had been worshipping idols and the text says that this idolatry is the reason God allowed them to be slain in battle.

So the surviving soldiers began to offer profound prayers that this dreadful sin would be forgiven and Judas Maccabeus decided to send a large quanity of silver to the Jerusalem temple for prayers for the forgivness of these Jewish soldier idolators.

The whole incident substantiates not just prayers for the dead but the hope and belief that sin, even very grave and unconfessed sin, may be forgiven by God even after death.

2 Macc 12: 39-46

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm

On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Thank you, Anthony. It is good to see the text amended.

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

3.XI.2013. News was received today (Infernal.news.org) that a monk from the Mount Shasta region failed to pass through the toll houses. The demonic judges prevailed upon the angels that it was in the nature of sin that a monk should have such an addiction to the music of Mozart and to soprillos and tubaxes.

The monk’s guardian angel is preparing an appeal to the Demonic Council asking them to suspend the torments of the monk while he seeks heavenly advice whether an excessive love of music is an infringement of the monastic vows.

There may be some conflict...

1. The teaching that only the Orthodox are saved. All non-Orthodox do not pass through the toll houses but are taken to hell immediately at death.

2. The teaching that the demons can tempt us into fresh sins at the toll houses and cause us to lose salvation.

3. The teaching that not only unconfessed sin will cause our damnation but also even the smallest attachment to any passion.

I find these teachings very uncongenial to my faith.

Father, I've skimmed the thread but cannot find a reason why Ukrainian Greek Catholics pray for Mary. Since she is sinless it cannot be for forgiveness of her sins. Since she is "full of grace" it cannot be for an increase in grace.

Were the reasons for praying for Mary explained?

Neither do the Orthodox pray for Saints.

In the evening of a Saint's canonisation a final memorial service (Pannikhida) is served for him. This is the last time the faithful of the Church will ever pray for him.

Then the All Night Vigil commences and during Matins the proclamation of his canonisation is read, his newly painted icon is unveiled on the central analogion and his newly composed Megalynarion is sung three times. From this moment we will never again pray for him but only to him.

1. The Nikonian Slavonic texts regarding references to Mary, the Mother of God, are identical for both Orthodox and Greek Catholics. The Greek originals are, of course, in Greek but say the same thing.

2. This thread seems to be speaking mostly of the remembrances in the dyptichs. For example:
The OCA, ROCOR and other translations are similar but use a different style.

Taft states (Volume IV) that these are a remembrance of the dead. He does not develop it, but the texts are pretty clear that they are not a pray for the salvation of Mary, John the Baptist, and the others mentioned but a remembrance that is part of the Byzantine liturgical tradition. As the text shows, we remember those departed in the faith who are Saints and ask God to visit us through their prayers (because they have been made perfect in faith).

Then we turn to other remembrances of the dead, with a specific request:
So we can see that in the first part of the dyptichs we remember Mary, the Mother of God, John the Baptist, the Apostles and all the Saints and ask the Lord to visit us through their prayers.

Then the prayer shifts to a new remembrance of the dead - this one with the addition of a petition that the Lord grant them rest where the light of His face shines.

Fr. Ambrose, if this is not the specific text you were referring to, can you please post the specific texts you are concerned with, from both the Greek Catholic translation you have an issue with and from the translation you use (ROCOR, OCA, etc.)? I'm just not seeing where how you are concluding that the Greek Catholics are praying for Mary. I've even looked at all references to Mary and see only remembrances of her. Thanks.

The Divine Liturgy has what seems to be a prayer for Mary.

It also proclaims the sinfulness of Mary!

After communion as the priest places the particles from the diskos/paten into the precious Blood he prays:

"Wash away, O lord, the sins of all those commemorated here..." and the first particle which he places into the Blood is the triangular piece which commemorates the Mother of God.

Yikes! so there we have it, a liturgical teaching of the sinfulness of Mary!!

This is not surprising, to find it in Chrysostom’s Liturgy, because as late as the fifth century (until the Council of Ephesus) a belief in the sinfulness of Mary was permissible and held by such great theologians as Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Basil the Great. Their beliefs are incorporated in the Liturgies they wrote. Given their belief that Mary was a sinner is it a surprise to find a prayer for her?

But since Chalcedon, and certainly these days, the Orthodox would see this belief as sinful (and heretical.)

It surprises and astounds me that it is permitted to Catholics and that the Vatican allows it. One day the bilateral dialogue will have to address it.

Ummmm.... I'm not sure how you missed the ending of that prayer, Father.

If you read the whole prayer it asks the Lord to wash away the sins of those commemorated through the prayers of the Saints. It seems to me that in both Orthodox and Catholic theology Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles and the other recognized Saints are the ones whose intersessions are being referred to.

I do not see how this statement can be in any way a defacto Orthodox teaching of Mary's sinfulness. Can you please provide some references to your favorite liturgical theologians regarding the Orthodox liturgical teaching on this specific text?

Many thanks!

PS: I'm purposely not getting into the variances in texts between Greeks, Slavs and Ruthenians since there is a much important issue that needs clarification.

I cannot provide any Orthodox commentary on either

1. the sinfulness of Mary

2. prayer for Mary.

Both teachings have no relevance for us.

I really am flabbergasted that the Vatican allows and engages in prayer for Mary. Do you have references?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church knows nothing of prayer for Mary

Father Ambrose,

I've never seen a prayer for Mary. Can you please offer an example (and cite where it comes from)?

In your most recent posts you stated that the the post-communion prayer (quoted above in #401089 and #401092) was an example of "a liturgical teaching of the sinfulness of Mary". I refuted that. It is not such a prayer. And the text cannot be twisted to conclude that, from either a Catholic or Orthodox perspective. I was just chatting with a friend who is an Orthodox liturgical theologian and not only did he never hear of your claim, but he also says the text cannot be twisted to mean what you claim it means.

We certainly remember Mary and the Saints in the Liturgy, typically with the appeal "through their intercessions". But is not the same thing as praying for them. As I noted above, the diptychs (and other liturgical texts) differentiate between remembering the Saints and asking God to visit us through their prayers, and praying for specific individuals (that they may find rest, etc.).

So, please start again. You state that the Vatican allows prayers for Mary. Please cite clear examples of this (and include chapter and verse). Otherwise you need to withdraw your claim, but it is not supported by evidence.

John

Yesterday I read all of this thread with great interest. The Ukrainian Greek Catholics are insistent on prayer for Mary. On the other hand, Melkite and Malankarese and maybe members of some other autonomous ritual Churches, as well as Latin Catholic contributors, deny it very strongly. I'm sure you'd be as fascinated as I was if you read the thread.

If you look at this thread you will see the insistence of Greek Ukrainian contributors that the Liturgy contains prayer for Mary. Now I had, quite by chance, the opportunity to be present at a Byzantine Liturgy celebrated by Pope John Paul II in Saint Peter's. So we see prayers for Mary offered in the Vatican and by no less than His Holiness.

Prayers for Mary are present in all the ancient Eastern liturgies, not just the Byzantine rite. It was an issue at Florence for the Armenians, when the Latins insisted on removing prayers for Mary from their liturgy (and the Armenians had, up to that point, very good relations with the Latins.

In the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the most obvious prayer to Mary is found just before "It is truly proper. . . ":


Taft writes, in "Eastern Presuppositions and Western Liturgical Renewal":

Once again, I wonder about your sources.