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John, as a guest on this forum I probably should not be involved in interfamilial disagreements over whether Catholics do or don't pray for Mary. About all I can do is provide an Orthodox comment, that such prayer is unknown among Orthodox Christians.
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On the other hand, Melkite and Malankarese and maybe members of some other autonomous ritual Churches, as well as Latin Catholic contributors, deny it very strongly. Once again, I wonder about your sources. Read through this thread. See who is insisting on prayer for Mary and who denies it. Ask them for their sources.
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Father Ambrose,
I just finished re-reading much of this thread, and paid particular attention to references regarding Mary (I specifically searched the term).
I can easily find your posts claiming that Ukrainian Catholics pray for Mary, but other than your claims I see no evidence that such occurs (either from posts in this thread or from my collection of liturgical texts).
I can find where you have previously offered the partial quote from the post-communion prayer (which we discussed earlier today), but I can also see where several posters corrected your erroneous conclusion that the Byzantine liturgical texts include prayers for Mary. [You should know better than to misquote the Liturgy!]
I find no evidence from Ukrainian Catholic posters which claim they pray for Mary. The only discussion regarding Ukrainian Catholics appears to be (again) from posters correcting your erroneous understanding of the Byzantine liturgical texts (which clearly do not pray for Mary). [There is one poster who speculates that theosis continues for the Saints, but this can't be used as evidence of anything taught or done by the Ukrainian Catholics in Liturgy. I could believe that an individual Christian might believe such a thing, but that is not the same as stating that a whole Church believes such a thing. But, again, there is no evidence of that in this thread.]
I'm glad you were able to be in attendance at the Divine Liturgy celebrated by Pope John Paul II, but I know that you did not witness prayers for Mary. The liturgical texts used by Ukrainian Catholics are from the Ruthenian recension and do not contain any such prayers. I expect you remember incorrectly.
Again, please post the specific examples of prayers for Mary. If using examples from this thread post the post# and quote the text.
And please do not claim again that Ukrainian Greek Catholics are insistent on prayer for Mary without quotes backed up by properly referenced documentation.
John
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Dear John, this ought to be an inter-Catholic discussion. If you have determined that no Catholics in this thread were speaking of prayer for Mary, I am delighted.
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Some posts speaking about prayer for Mary
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332904
I haven’t searched past 332904
Last edited by Hieromonk Ambrose; 11/03/13 07:14 PM.
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Father Ambrose, I see nuance possibly where you don't. Again: Moreover, we offer to You this spiritual sacrifice for those who departed in the faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics and for every just spirit made perfect in faith.
And the priest, taking the censer, intones:
Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary.
For the holy Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, John,
for the holy glorious and all-praised Apostles,
for Saint N. [the saint of the day] whose memory we celebrate,
and for all Your Saints,
through whose prayers, O God, visit us.
Remember, O God,
Your servant(s), N.N. and all those who have fallen asleep
in the hope of resurrection to eternal life.
Grant them rest where the light of Your face shines. Mary, the Mother of God, John the Baptist, the Apostles, the Saints, and us were/are all in need of the saving events - all that was done in our behalf; the Cross, the Tomb, the Resurrection on the Third Day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the Right Hand, the Second and Glorious Coming Again. In this way one could say that the Eucharistic Offering is for Mary, the Saints and us, and that our continued celebration of the Divine Liturgy is one together with the Lord and His Apostles on that Saving Night. This is all perfectly Orthodox and Catholic. Perhaps I see more nuance in the text. 'We offer... this spiritual sacrifice... for... Mary (and all the Saints)... [in thanksgiving for Your having saved them] (and we ask) through (their) prayers, O God, visit us.' [And then we continue, qualifying differently:] 'Your servants... who have fallen asleep... grant them rest where the light of Your face shines.' In this prayer I can see how the Mystical Supper was for Mary (and all the Saints), how in that sense it continues to be for them (the Liturgy is outside of time, and a participation in the same Eucharist the Lord celebrated with his Apostles), and how we in the Eucharist ask the Saints to pray for us (that God visit us), and that we ask the Lord to remember kindly those who have fallen asleep. But you insist that there are differences in Orthodox and Catholic understanding, and I just don't see them. I've read the posts you listed. Some of the material we've covered today. I see good posts, posts with a lack of nuance, and some that could be made better, but I don't see posts where the same texts used by Catholics and Orthodox mean different things to the people praying them. That's all for tonight. John
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...but I don't see posts where the same texts used by Catholics and Orthodox mean different things to the people praying them John, I concede.  If we all agree that we do NOT pray for Mary, we are all on the same page.
Last edited by Hieromonk Ambrose; 11/03/13 09:12 PM.
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The Anaphora of St. Basil does, in fact, have us pray FOR the All-holy Theotokos!
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The Anaphora of St. Basil does, in fact, have us pray FOR the All-holy Theotokos! Father Ambrose has stated that Catholics (especially Ukrainian Catholics) celebrating the Divine Liturgy pray for Mary in a way that Orthodox do not (using the same texts), with the further question as to why. My understanding is provided in post #401111 above. In short, I don't see different Catholic and Orthodox theologies regarding the Mother of God in the Divine Liturgy.
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The Anaphora of St. Basil does, in fact, have us pray FOR the All-holy Theotokos! Like Saint John Chrysostom Saint Basil believed in Mary's sinfulness. This belief was permissible in the Church up to the Council of Chalcedon in 451. So, again... not surprising to find their beliefs reflected in their Liturgies.
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The Anaphora of St. Basil does, in fact, have us pray FOR the All-holy Theotokos! Father Ambrose has stated that Catholics (especially Ukrainian Catholics) celebrating the Divine Liturgy pray for Mary in a way that Orthodox do not Not really. I am repeating what has been written here by Catholic posters, Stuart among them. It would be reassuring for me to receive answers to the questions:--- 1. Do Catholics pray for Mary? 2. Do Catholics not pray for Mary?
Last edited by Hieromonk Ambrose; 11/04/13 01:22 PM.
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in the Church up to the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Correction! Ephesus in 431.
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Dear Father Ambrose,
It depends what you mean by "sinfulness."
Chrysostom and Basil the Great may have seen the Most Holy Theotokos commit "venial sins" but hardly charged the Mother of our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ with "sinfulness."
Chrysostom and Basil may have erred here. The Church was under no obligation to accept their opinions on such matters.
From the Orthodox point of view, I may be "Heterodox in communion with Rome," but I would run like the devil from anyone who advanced such views.
Alex
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Father Ambrose,
The Administrator here gave what I believe to have been a very thorough and theologically subtle and complete answer to this question.
We use the same Divine Liturgy as does your Church (although we don't commemorate the Patriarch of Moscow).
Do the prayers of the Priest not say that the Divine Liturgy is offered "for the Most Holy Theotokos?"
What could that mean?
Otherwise, I stick to praying for you.
Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 11/04/13 02:39 PM.
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This thread is so far departed from its original topic that I think the time has come for it to close. Thanks to all who contributed to it.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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