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ajk #333628 09/28/09 05:38 PM
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[quote=ajk]
2.As I asked in a previous post: Why limit it ["ecumenicity of these councils"] then to only the councils held in the West? As noted a number of times, has not the absence of Nestorians and especially non-Calcedonian churches also "rendered impossible the holding of ecumenical councils in the strict sense of the term"? [/quote]

The argument seems to be, "they don't officially accept the councils, but they accept the doctrine, therefore the councils are ecumenical." Aside from the fact that it is highly debatable that the non-Chalcedonians share the doctrine of Chalcedon, it's also a pretty weak argument to say, "well, they agree with the basic idea, so really they accept it, even if they say they don't."

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1. In what explicit way did pre-VC II ecclesiology dismiss the Churches of the East as "non-Churches"?

See the Papal Bull Magnus Dominus (1598), which clarified the status of the Ruthenian (Ukrainian) uniates in light of the ecclesiology of Trent. It states, to put it bluntly, that the Church of Rome IS the Catholic Church, the one true Church, the Church of God, and there are no other Churches outside of it. Thus, the Ruthenian bishops could not negotiate with Rome as one Church to another, but only as an aggregation of repentant heretics, who might be allowed to keep their unique customs and hierarchy under dispensation. Thus, they were only recognized as "rites" of the Roman Catholic Church. These were not the terms under which the Ruthenians had entered into the Treaty of Brest, which was predicated on the ecclesiology of the Council of Florence, which understood that the Church of Rome was supreme, but also recognized the existence of other true Churches. So the change in attitude came between 1439 and 1598--and the critical factor behind it was the Protestant Reformation.

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2.As I asked in a previous post: Why limit it ["ecumenicity of these councils"] then to only the councils held in the West? As noted a number of times, has not the absence of Nestorians and especially non-Calcedonian churches also "rendered impossible the holding of ecumenical councils in the strict sense of the term"?

It may very well be that reception of the substance of a council is sufficient, even if the precise terminology of a council is not received.

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Originally Posted by mardukm
Another source of misunderstanding of the role of the Pope in an ecumenical Council is the notion that only the Pope grants an Ecumenical Council its Ecumenical status. Both monarchial papists and anti-papal non-Catholics derive this misconception from the teaching that an Ecumenical Council is not Ecumenical unless the Pope confirms it or at least recognizes it as such. Personally, I don't see the word "only" in the definition.
The Ravenna Document, metioned previously, touches on this:
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42. Conciliarity at the universal level, exercised in the ecumenical councils, implies an active role of the bishop of Rome, as protos of the bishops of the major sees, in the consensus of the assembled bishops. Although the bishop of Rome did not convene the ecumenical councils of the early centuries and never personally presided over them, he nevertheless was closely involved in the process of decision-making by the councils.
link [vatican.va]

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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Would Chalcedon be ecumenical if accepted by Rome but not by Alexandria?

An excellent question...

It ought to be enough for the Alexandrians to admit that Chalcedon is not heretical, and for the Chalcedonians to admit that the Alexandrians are not heretics for their failure to receive Chalcedon.
I agree, but it does not address the issue at hand. Are the EO wrong for insisting on 7 Ecumenical Councils? As stated, I believe the best solution is to distinguish between the infallibility of a Council from the necessary consensus for the sake of unity. Thereby, the OO can accept the dogmatic decrees of such Councils without necessitating an admission that they are "Ecumenical." The same could be assumed for the other Councils of regarded as "Ecumenical" by the Catholic Church.

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I believe that was due to the non-acceptance of many of the canons of Trullo, which I think is rather fair. Was there any other reason it was only considered "partially" accepted?

Trullo has nothing to do with the Seventh Council, which is why it is called the Quinisextunct (Fifth-Sixth): it was intended to provide a canonical addendum to the Second and Third Councils of Constantinople. Pope Benedict wrote in his book Reflections on the Liturgy that the West did not fully receive the Second Council of Nicaea because it did not understand or accept the Christological foundations for the doctrine of sacred images. The Latin Church opposed iconoclasm, but did so on the grounds that images were part of the Depositum Fidei, and that they were necessary for the catechesis of the illiterate. In other words, it took a purely pragmatic and didactic approach to images, and did not really comprehend the arguments made by John Damascene and Theodore Studites. As a result, a "canon" of sacred art did not emerge in the Latin West, and images are not integral to Western worship as they are in the Byzantine East.
Oh,OK. Then much ado about nothing.

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Don't you mean the 70 years between Constantinople and Chalcedon? Ephesus did not accept Constantinople as Ecumenical.

Rome retained what can best be called "Paleo-Nicene" theology, and did not accept the Cappodocian or "Neo-Nicene" theology of Constantinople I until the Council of Ephesus in 431. That's a fifty year gap. But, now that you mention it, Rome wasn't particularly happy with Chalcedon, either, mainly because of its famous Canon 28, and the exact time that Rome accepted the acts of Chalcedon remains in dispute.
Ephesus did not accept Constantinople I as Ecumenical. You haven't addressed that yet. But that's really beside the point anyway.

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That's debatable. There's only one supposed example of this occuring - the so-called 8th Ecumenical Council.
That is the key example. But we can also look at the ambivalent relationship between the Councils of Constance and Florence-Ferrara.
A council held with an Anti-pope is not valid. The teaching that the confirmation of a true Pope is necessary for a Council to be ecumenical is not effaced by that unfortunate period in Latin Church history.

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There are non-Catholic and secular sources that assert that John XIII repudiated that Council within his pontificate (and excommunicated the legates), when he discovered that Photius tampered with the papal statement intended for the Council to ratify, and that Photius included several explicitly anti-Latin canons (See: the Protestant Schaff’s History of the Christian Church, Vol. IV; Italian secular historian Claudio Rendina’s The Popes, Histories and Secrets, an appraisal of Catholic Church history from the political perspective).

These were decisively rebutted by Francis Dvornik in his monumental The Photian Schism, on which all subsequent scholars have relied since. There is near universal consensus among Catholic, Orthodox and secular historians that the Synod of 879-880 did indeed revoke the decrees of the Synod of 869-870, and that John VIII did indeed ratify the Synod. The fact that the Synod remained in collections of Roman canons through the eleventh century indicates it was accepted. There was no second Photian Schism.
Repudiating the 879-880 Synod does not necessitate a second Photian Schism.

QUESTION: Were the canons of the 869-870 Synod in the collections as well? Yes. So what does it prove that the canons of the 879-880 Synod were in the collections? It seems they were there for merely historic reasons.

In any case, the Synod of 869-870 dealt with a purely discplinary matter. It did not even exercise infallibility. So whether or not it was repealed at any time doesn't mean a thing. As repeatedly stated, we should distinguish between the infallibility of Councils (by which truth is established), and the subsequent consensus of the Church (by which unity is established).

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Ravenna admits that an Ecumenical Council is a unique event guided by the Holy Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit, being the anarchist contingent of the Trinity, cannot be bound by a priori canonical criteria defining what is and is not an ecumenical council.
How is the Holy Spirit being bound?

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Originally Posted by StuartK
... the Holy Spirit, being the anarchist contingent of the Trinity ...
What! shocked

Has there been a revolution I hadn't heard about? eek

ajk #333633 09/28/09 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by mardukm
Another source of misunderstanding of the role of the Pope in an ecumenical Council is the notion that only the Pope grants an Ecumenical Council its Ecumenical status. Both monarchial papists and anti-papal non-Catholics derive this misconception from the teaching that an Ecumenical Council is not Ecumenical unless the Pope confirms it or at least recognizes it as such. Personally, I don't see the word "only" in the definition.
The Ravenna Document, metioned previously, touches on this:
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42. Conciliarity at the universal level, exercised in the ecumenical councils, implies an active role of the bishop of Rome, as protos of the bishops of the major sees, in the consensus of the assembled bishops. Although the bishop of Rome did not convene the ecumenical councils of the early centuries and never personally presided over them, he nevertheless was closely involved in the process of decision-making by the councils.
link [vatican.va]
Well done, brother AJK.

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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by StuartK
... the Holy Spirit, being the anarchist contingent of the Trinity ...
What! shocked

Has there been a revolution I hadn't heard about? eek
That was my initial reaction too when I read that. But I assumed (I hope) he was just being cheeky. smile

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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1. In what explicit way did pre-VC II ecclesiology dismiss the Churches of the East as "non-Churches"?

See the Papal Bull Magnus Dominus (1598), which clarified the status of the Ruthenian (Ukrainian) uniates in light of the ecclesiology of Trent. ...

But what exactly did it say AND how did this differ regarding the churches of the East and West; i.e, my question 1. consists of two parts:
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1. In what explicit way did pre-VC II ecclesiology dismiss the Churches of the East as "non-Churches"? That is a very strong term. How did that ecclesiology differ regarding the churches of the East and the West in that they are "authentic local Churches with authentic bishops"?

Also, specifically in what decree of Trent is the indicated ecclesiology found?

ajk #333637 09/28/09 07:08 PM
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Dear brother AJK,

I agree with Father Kimel and brother StuartK that there was a period when Rome did not regard the other Churches as true Churches, but merely as schismatics that needed to come back into the fold, and that the Latin Church was the only true Church. So it's almost understandable that the Medieval Catholic Church (which was basically the Latin Church) could claim to be able to hold Ecumenical Councils.

I do disagree on one point with them - I believe that the respect accorded to the Eastern and Oriental Churches as Churches came way before Vatican 2. I believe it became evident at least 20 years before Vatican 1. Though I also admit that this understanding seems to have been limited to the Vatican itself, and not shared by the rest of the Latins. It was only around the period of Vatican 2 that the Latin Church generally accorded the Easterns and Orientals the same respect that the papacy had been giving them for over a century before that time.

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Originally Posted by mardukm
I agree with Father Kimel and brother StuartK that there was a period when Rome did not regard the other Churches as true Churches, but merely as schismatics that needed to come back into the fold, and that the Latin Church was the only true Church.
It's nice that you agree, but on what objective and consistent basis? Communio ecclesiology has certainly advance among Catholics since VC-II, with changing nuances and understandings, but with the same ultimate result -- nicer and better words to say the same things (see quote from the Ravenna Document below) but with essentials emphasized more evenly. Also, the argument originally presented was unclear and possibly drew conclusions based on debatable presumptions. So I asked, what local/particular churches of the East are we talking about, Catholic and/or Orthodox, and how, according to the then prevailing ecclesiology, were they considered differently from what we now see as local/particular churches of the West?

Originally Posted by mardukm
So it's almost understandable that the Medieval Catholic Church (which was basically the Latin Church) could claim to be able to hold Ecumenical Councils.
As I have said several times, the claim was more than just medieval and extends at least to 1962, the claim then being made by Pope John XXII, repeatedly, in opening the very council that would provide the thrust for that same comunio ecclesiology.

Catholic theology has in the past recognized Orthodox sacraments -- the Eucharist -- though the ramifications of that may not have been refined in its past ecclesiology with the nuances of today. But I ask those who would comment on the presumed benighted state of Catholic ecclesiology in the past to first comment on the following, a note in the Ravennna Document, a document of theological consensus though not official status, but reflecting current understandings:

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Orthodox participants felt it important to emphasize that the use of the terms “the Church”, “the universal Church”, “the indivisible Church” and “the Body of Christ” in this document and in similar documents produced by the Joint Commission in no way undermines the self-understanding of the Orthodox Church as the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, of which the Nicene Creed speaks. From the Catholic point of view, the same self-awareness applies: the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church “subsists in the Catholic Church” (Lumen Gentium, 8); this does not exclude acknowledgement that elements of the true Church are present outside the Catholic communion.

ajk #333643 09/28/09 09:49 PM
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I am not certain of the title of the book from which this was taken, but you can find it here [crvp.org] , and the scholarship seems quite good. I think it answers ajk's question adequately.

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EXTRA ECCLESIAM ROMANAM NULLA SALUS

A strictly confessionalist interpretation of the ancient axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus was adopted in the official teaching of the medieval Latin Church. The IV Lateran Council (1215) stated generally: "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one whatever is saved."4 Pope Boniface VIII in his bull Unam Sanctam (1302) stressed not only the necessity of the Church for salvation, but linked it very closely with the subordination to the Bishop of Rome: "We declare, define and pronounce that for every human creature to be submitted to the Roman Pontiff is simply a necessity of salvation."5 The same reference to the Pope is also evident in the statement of Clement VI (1351), for whom "the Roman Church" (Ecclesia Romana) is "the only one Catholic Church" (quae una sola catholica est); consequently "being outside the faith of the same Church and the obedience of the Roman Pontiffs, no man among the pilgrims can finally be saved."6

Quoting St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, the Council of Florence uttered the same conviction in the Decree for the Jacobites:

No people who do not exist within the Catholic Church can be participants in eternal life, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics (...). Nobody can be saved, whatever alms he would give, even if he had shed his blood for Christ’s name, unless he remains in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.7

The quotation of Fulgentius played an important role in this ecclesiological conception. A long tradition ascribed this text, although unjustly, to St. Augustine, whose authority contributed greatly to its significance and application.

A famous Jesuit, Antonio Possevino who unsuccessfully tried to convert Tsar Ivan the Terrible, makes in his book Moscovia (1586) a clear reference to the same teaching: "If somebody reads very attentively the canons of the Council of Florence (...), he will come to know the truest and the only faith, without which nobody can achieve the glory of heaven" (sine qua nemini unquam ad coelestem gloriam aditus patebit).8 And, significantly, he adds:

But among all errors, the most obvious and the greatest is the opinion of the Greeks and the Ruthenians that they may achieve salvation (aeternam se posse salutem adipisci) outside the Roman Catholic Church. (...) In fact, if somebody denied that Christ the Lord gave Peter power and primacy on earth (potestatem ac primatum in terris) or, deceived fraudulently, thought the power which should never be overcome by the gates of hell had become extinct - he has already been condemned, even if he believes in all other truths (iam condemnatus est, etiamsi pleraque alia omnia credit).9

Similar views were also shared by another well-known Jesuit theologian of that time, Peter Skarga.10 In his letter of November 12, 1594 Cardinal I. Aldobrandini expressed quite clearly his theological opinions while speaking about those Ruthenian Bishops who had been ready to acknowledge the primacy of the Roman See:

(...) Se li vescovi di Russia (...) si mostreranno saldi nel proposito di riconoscere l’autorità et il primato di questa Santa Sede, sarà cosa non solo per se stessa utilissima et salutare ad infinite anime che vanno miseramente dannate, ma sarà argomento che la divina Providentia, toccando cosí li cuori degli huomini, voglia lasciar placare l’ira sua, per esserci poi nelle cominciate imprese più propitia.11

Here again we can see "infinite souls going miserably to be condemned" because they live outside the true Church. Those who are ready to acknowledge the authority and the primacy of the Pope can consequently be seen as a sign of the divine Providence touching human hearts to appease the wrath of God.

THE ROMAN DENIAL OF THE ECCLESIOLOGY OF SISTER CHURCHES IN THE CONSTITUTION MAGNUS DOMINUS

The constitution Magnus Dominus (1595) which proclaimed the Union of Brest displays the same soteriological and ecclesiological exclusivism. It says that Ruthenian Bishops came to the conclusion that they themselves and the flock entrusted to their responsibility "had not been members of Christ’s body which is the Church, because they lacked any link with the visible head of his Church, the supreme Roman Pontiff" (non esse membra corporis Christi, quod est Ecclesia, qui visibili ipsius Ecclesiae capiti Summo Romano Pontifici non cohaererent);12 that "they were not inside the sheep-fold of Christ, inside the Ark of Salvation, and in the house built on a rock" (intra Ovile Christi, intra Arcam salutis et intra Domum illam non essent, quae est aedificata supra petram).13 Therefore, "They firmly decided to return to the Roman Church, their Mother and the Mother of all the faithful, to come back to the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth, the common Father and Shepherd of the whole Christian people" (firmiter decreverunt redire ad suam et omnium fidelium Matrem Romanam Ecclesiam, reverti ad Romanum Pontificem Christi in terris Vicarium, et totius populi christiani communem Patrem et Pastorem).14

No wonder that the Ruthenian Bishops, the clergy and the faithful were canonically received into communion with the Roman Church, not as a Metropolitan Sister Church, but simply as individuals, coming back to the Church from "outside" and asking individually for reunion. No mention was even made of the synodal decision of the Ruthenian Bishops in this matter. On the part of Rome, there was no recognition of the Kievan Sister Church.

The Constitution notes that this return takes place after the more than 150 years which had elapsed since the Union of Florence, and thus should be understood as accepting the union again. The category return plays a decisive role in this ecclesiological thinking. The Roman Church is called "the Head, the Mother and the Teacher of all Churches" (Caput, Mater et Magistra omnium Ecclesiarum).15 In their confession of faith, the Ruthenian Bishops pledged to preserve the "true Catholic faith, outside which nobody can be saved" (extra quam nemo salvus esse potest) in all its integrity and purity".16

This final formula was taken from the Tridentine profession of faith17 reintroduced also in the profession of faith prescribed in 1575 for the Greeks by Pope Gregory XIII18. It will appear later also in a special profession of faith introduced by Pope Urban VIII (1623-1644)19 which was used unchanged until the 1st Vatican Council by newly appointed Uniate Bishops (a reference to the primacy and infallibility of the Pope was introduced only in 1878).20

In the light of all these statements, the membership of the Church of God was seen as essentially conditioned by communion with the Pope. Those who do not belong to the Roman-Catholic Church cannot be saved because they are not members of the Church of God as such. Membership of the Roman Catholic Church was thus thought of as the only possible way of attaining salvation.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
I am not certain of the title of the book from which this was taken, but you can find it here [crvp.org], and the scholarship seems quite good. I think it answers ajk's question adequately.
Thanks for the reference; it seems an interesting work. It appears to be in (link [crvp.org]), The Challenge of Our Hope: Christian Faith in Dialogue, Polish Philosophical Studies, VII, Waclaw Hryniewicz. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my questions or abate my objections. For one thing it jumps back and forth between present and past theological expressions and the ecclesiological understandings of the times, trying too hard to produce some shock effect. For instance:
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EXTRA ECCLESIAM ROMANAM NULLA SALUS

A strictly confessionalist interpretation of the ancient axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus was adopted in the official teaching of the medieval Latin Church. The IV Lateran Council (1215) stated generally: "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one whatever is saved."4 Pope Boniface VIII in his bull Unam Sanctam (1302) stressed not only the necessity of the Church for salvation, but linked it very closely with the subordination to the Bishop of Rome: "We declare, define and pronounce that for every human creature to be submitted to the Roman Pontiff is simply a necessity of salvation."5 The same reference to the Pope is also evident in the statement of Clement VI (1351), for whom "the Roman Church" (Ecclesia Romana) is "the only one Catholic Church" (quae una sola catholica est); consequently "being outside the faith of the same Church and the obedience of the Roman Pontiffs, no man among the pilgrims can finally be saved."6
Who doesn't adhere to the axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus? The Orthodox then and now?

Here's another one:
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THE ROMAN DENIAL OF THE ECCLESIOLOGY OF SISTER CHURCHES IN THE CONSTITUTION MAGNUS DOMINUS
Am I to understand that the concept of sister church's was already developed, even highly developed, by 1595? Was the ecclesiology of "sister churches" then and now the ecclesiology of the Orthodox? One holds the Church of the past to scrutiny using concepts and terminology of the present as the gauge and, guess what, it is found wanting, and the author has himself a book.

Consider the actual result, for example, as found in the Ravenna Document:
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Orthodox participants felt it important to emphasize that the use of the terms “the Church”, “the universal Church”, “the indivisible Church” and “the Body of Christ” in this document and in similar documents produced by the Joint Commission in no way undermines the self-understanding of the Orthodox Church as the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, of which the Nicene Creed speaks. From the Catholic point of view, the same self-awareness applies: the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church “subsists in the Catholic Church” (Lumen Gentium, 8); this does not exclude acknowledgement that elements of the true Church are present outside the Catholic communion.




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Who doesn't adhere to the axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus? The Orthodox then and now?

You missed his insertion of Romanam after Ecclesiam. That's the whole point--in the second millennium, gradually at first, then more forcefully, the Church of Rome came to the conclusion that it, and it alone, was the only true Church. The Orthodox Churches were not true Churches because they were not part of the Church of Rome (see the words of Clement VI: "the Roman Church" (Ecclesia Romana) is "the only one Catholic Church".

This is very different from the Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology, based on a communion of particular Churches. As late as 1439, the Church of Rome could negotiate with the Church of Constantinople, Church to Church. By 1598, when the Ruthenian bishops attempted to enter communion as a metropolitan Church, they were rebuffed in Magnus Dominus. As the Constitution says, they had to "return to the Roman Church".

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Am I to understand that the concept of sister church's was already developed, even highly developed, by 1595?

The doctrine of Sister Churches was the Patristic norm. Throughout the first millennium, the Catholic Church was seen as a commonwealth or communion of Churches linked through the communion of bishops, of which the Church of Rome ranked first in priority. In the second millennium, as a result of a number of factors, including the outlook of the Cluniac Popes of the 11th century, the ecclesiology of the Church of Rome began to resemble that of the Cluniac monastic order: everything within one pyramidal institutional structure--the Church of Rome--with everything else subordinate to the Bishop of Rome. They looked at the Church as a gigantic monastery, with the Pope as the supreme abbott of all.

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Consider the actual result, for example, as found in the Ravenna Document
:

The difference between this, and the ecclesiology of the Roman Catholic Church from the medieval period onward is pretty stark: while each communion sees itself as the repository of the fullness of faith, neither denies that there is grace within the other, or denies its ecclesial status. Not even the Orthodox today go so far as to paraphrase the perspective of Boniface VIII, "We declare, define and pronounce that for every human creature to be submitted to the Orthodox Church is simply a necessity of salvation." And, of course, Lumen Gentium is a direct repudiation of the Roman Church's previous exclusivism. Before, the Orthodox were dissident schismatics; now, they are Sister Churches.

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Although the bishop of Rome did not convene the ecumenical councils of the early centuries and never personally presided over them, he nevertheless was closely involved in the process of decision-making by the councils.

This line from the Ravenna document is a slight historical exaggeration in the name of tact and diplomacy. Of the first seven Councils, Rome took a major interest and materially participated in just one, the Council of Chalcedon. Rome had a very peripheral view of Nicaea I, no input to Constantinople I, a passive role at Ephesus, and was effectively absent from Constantinople II and III, and Nicaea II. Rome was not a theological powerhouse in the first millennium; it was in fact conservative almost to the point of being reactionary, which meant its main role in the formulation of doctrine was affirming any new teaching was consistent with the deposit of faith. The main contribution of Rome to the first Seven Councils was the Tome of Leo's application of the terms hypostasis and persona to the human and divine in Jesus Christ.

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Ummmm. No. The only sentence I agree with is "It was in fact conservative almost to the point of being reactionary, which meant its main role in the formulation of doctrine was affirming any new teaching was consistent with the deposit of faith." I hope to have the time by the end of the week to offer a refutation of everything else you said about Rome, if someone has not done so already.

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