www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Differences between the Byzantine Catholic Churches

Exactly. We take longer litanies, more litanies, and longer antiphons in our UGCC parish than our nearby Antiochian Orthodox parish.

There is a deeper, more insidious form of latinization, which is latinization of the soul, a deep-seated belief that Latin forms are not only more complete and advanced, but also normative. This leads, inevitably, into a tendency to think in Latin terms and categories, a gradual loss of the Eastern identity, and in some, a deep sense of self-loathing.

So if you see an Eastern pray the Rosary, are you going to beat them down with accusations of self-loathing and hatred for the Eastern Traditions?

No, but I have questioned why a Byzantine parish prays the rosary before Divine Liturgy instead of having Orthros/Matins. Maybe it's not self-hating, but it's certainly not Eastern.

Latinized to some extent.

OK. I see what you mean. I guess I just consider some of brother StuartK's rhetoric a bit extreme.

Blessings

Once upon a time a group of rather latinized Greek Catholics went to their pastor & asked if the rosary could be prayed before Divine Liturgy on Sunday. He is alleged to have responded, "Go find a Latin-rite parish that prays the akathist to the Most Holy Theotokos before Sunday Mass and then I'll consider approving your request."

The Rosary is a private devotion, one to which not a few Orthodox are also attracted (though I admit it doesn't do much for me). I have no problem with people's private devotions, as long as they are, indeed, private. When there are efforts to give these private devotions priority over the authentic liturgical prayer of the Church, then I have a serious problem.

Similarly, I am not particularly upset with people who insist on kneeling during portions of the Divine Liturgy, even on Sunday (though I am convinced that if the kneelers were removed, people would cease to kneel). I did get upset when I taught my ECF class that the authentic practice of the Eastern Churches is to stand during the Eucharistic Liturgy, especially on Sunday, only to be cornered by irate parents complaining that standing is an Orthodox thing--"we're Catholics, so we kneel".

I similarly get upset when people complain that "In the old days, we used to have Stations of the Cross, and now we have this Presanctified thing. Why did we have to change?"

But then, I'm just one of those extremely zealous convert types who doesn't quite understand why anyone would want to be anything other than a fully Orthodox Christian in communion with the Church of Rome.

By the way, if my language is "extreme", what would you call Father Taft's in a similar context? I refer to his essay Liturgy in the Life of the Church.

I'd have to agree with Stuart on the points he makes albeit, being well-acquainted with his pastor for many decades, I'm a bit surprised to hear that there is much in the way of latinization in the parish. Tolerance of it is certainly inconsistent with everything that I know of Father Joe's attitudes.

Many years,

Neil

This thread was added to by splitting posts from the Romanian Greek-Catholic News thread in the News forum. Please keep replies relevant to latinization in this thread.

Many years,

Neil

The Rosary is prayed by catholics of all rites, includind Byzantine Catholic.

There is nothing wrong with the Rosary being used as a private devotion - but being prayed in public in Church before Divine Liturgy is not the place for it.

Either Hours or Mattins should be served in Church before Liturgy as they are part of the Liturgical tradition of the Church.

Bless, Father,

As an example of what most of us mean by latinizations in our Churches, you might want to look at this list [melkite.org].

It is dated in some respects (most of what is cited there has been eliminated from the Melkite parishes and from many parishes of the other Byzantine Churches in the US) and incomplete in other respects, as the nature and extent of such abuses varied from place to place, time to time, Church to Church, and even parish to parish.

The situation here in the US with regard to latinizations differed in one major aspect from that in Romania because here - due to the fact that our Churches were without their own hierarchs for varying lengths of time, our presbyters, our temples, and our peoples were, for a long time, sui alienos - subject to the law of another - that of Latin hierarchs.

But, all of the latinizations that accrued were not the doing of those Latin bishops. Some, we adopted ourselves, in an effort to assure others that we were "really" Catholic, to "fit in", to be "less ethnic", "less foreign", and "more Catholic". And, it cost us, dearly, in terms of the loss of many thousands of faithful to the Orthodox Church - two US jurisdictions of which were effectively created from disheartened and disillusioned Byzantine Catholics who had trouble recognizing their own Church in the hybrid created by Rome, the US Latin hierarchy, and ourselves.

In Romania, although I claim no particular expertise on the matter, it appears that the Church has taken it upon itself to embrace, adopt, and carry forward latinization in spite of the recent mandates from Rome for the Eastern and Oriental Churches to recover and restore their heritage and praxis.

Interestingly, from all reports, Bishop John Michael and the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church's daughter in the US - the Eparchy of St George in Canton of the Romanians - have been working hard to achieve what Rome has asked of us all.

Many years,

Neil

Most of my experience with latinization dates to my Ruthenian years. Father Joseph's parish is, in many respects, more Orthodox than many Orthodox parishes I have visited. For instance, the Greek parish I attend when visiting my parents on the end of Long Island has pews, stained glass windows in place of icons, and an organ. It was not converted from some Methodist chapel, but was built this way. The pews and the windows both boast little plaques with the names of their Greek donors.

Dearest Father Coryolan,

May I ask, from your perspective and having read the list of "Latinizations" that brother Neil gave two posts ago, may I ask what "Latinizations" have been adopted by your Church? Also, do you feel these "Latinizations" interfere with your spirituality, theology, or overall identity as a Catholic of the Byzantine Tradition?

Humbly,
Marduk