www.byzcath.org

jporthodox,
I'm sure you are not Ukrainian, if you are, you sure don't seem to be one. If you're not Ukrainian I don't know why you are so worried about the future of our church and the way the Ukrainians wish to unite under one Patriarchate. I think you better prepare yourself, because Ukraine is a free nation with the right to have its own Patriarch. Ukrainians are fed up with the Moscow Patriarchate thinking that they are the only and true sorce of salvation. No other true and holy orthodox church would deny a nation to have its own patriarchate, using its own language and traditions. Let the Ukrainian nation decide for its future. I'm sure that whaterver comes about will only need the true Blessing of God and from no one else.
May God Bless you jporthodox,
Lauro Cezar Preima

:-) You were right, Ality.

Dear Ality,

We need real development, not mere propaganda.
For instance, regaining our authentic church autonomy, universal jurisdiction etc. is far more
significant than the patriarchal title for our
"Father and Head". Strong, self-governed Major
Archbishopric would be far better than a "Patriarchate" dependent in all things to Rome.
And a truly developed Theological Academy, with
faculties of theology, philosophy and canon law,
would be obviously far better than a ridiculous
pseudo-university without even full course in theology. I just think that real value of things
is more important than their names.
BTW, I know the LTA better than you, perhaps - and
I work at a real Catholic University, so I am able
to compare them.
Unfortunately, communist times left us many bad
things. One of the most known elements of that communist legacy is preference to propaganda fiction over the reality. Our churchmen are not
immunized towards this disease.

sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Piotr Siwicki ]

Ality and others may see the website of a
real Catholic University at
http://www.kul.lublin.pl/uk/
then compare CUL to the LTA and make their own conclusions.
I would add to this, that our University, although
LTA can't compete with us on any field, is in fact
no ideal: in all Polish universities' ranking
lists published by Polish press our CUL occupies
places definitely closer to the end of the list.


And one thing more: when Polish commies liquidated in 1950's theological faculties at state universities, a state-owned Catholic Theological Academy (Akademia Teologii Katolickiej) was created in Warsaw on basis of the liquidated Theological Faculty of the University of Warsaw. This Academy has lived, developed her structures, so at the end of previous millenium she obtained the university status. However, they teach (and conduct research on) not only theology, philosophy and canon law, but also secular law, psychology, physics, mathematics, chemistry, Polish language & literature, paedagogics, history, history of art, church musicology, sociology, politology - shorter: VARIOUS disciplines. I think
this is an appropriate path for the LTA: firstly
build a true Theological Academy, then try to
develope an university. Unfortunately, they put
the horse behing the carriage as our whole Church
does, while creating many "Patriarchal" institutions without having Patriarch!

sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Piotr Siwicki ]

I too want real development, not propaganda, and I think that we are doing this. One of the best things we have going for our church, and Her ability to "regain" (have we ever really had it???) Her autonomy is the LTA. Perhaps it is not being done "Peter's way" but I have alot of confidnece in Fr. Borys and others in charge at the LTA that they are doing things right.

Perhaps you do know the LTA better than I do, perhaps not?! But if it makes you feel good to talk down one of the best things we have going, well, I hope your ego is satisfied. The LTA will become a University, they are working very hard to get the different faculites and programs necessary to call it a University "proper". I know this from first hand experience.

I agree with your points about patriarchal titles and true self "autonomy" and most importantly for those of us in the new world, universal jurisdiction, however I do not recall making any points here on this thread about it ????

ALity

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

Subdeacon Piotr, the Sheptytsky Institute has a licencate and doctoral program in Eastern Christian studies within St. Paul University, which has a variety of academic programs and enjoys full university status. The Sheptytsky Institute faculty, including Frs. Chirovsky and Galadza, have spent much time assisting Fr. Borys and Fr. Dimid before him in building up the LTA.

While I agree that the LTA/UCU is crucial to the theological and spiritual development of our church in the long run, we also need the geographic diversity of an authentic Eastern Christian academic institution in North America. The role of the diaspora in the renewal of the UGCC can't be overlooked-just look at the list of North American bishops serving now in the Ukrainian Catholic Church-Soroka, Hrynchyshyn, Stasiuk, Pasichny, Huculak, Lonchyna, Wiwchar, Bzdel, Motiuk, Chomnycky, etc. and the need is certainly there for an English-language academic venue. So I for one will continue to be thoroughly supportive of the Sheptytsky Institute as the MASI has played a significant part in the academic and theological renewal in our church and has played a major part cooperatively in the rebirth of the LTA. We need them both, badly.
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

lpreima Thank you for your blessing and I ask God for the same blessing for you. You are correct, I am not Ukrainian. I happen to be Greek. However, I am Orthodox as are millions of Ukrainians. Like all other Orthodox, I wish to protect the Orthodox faith. To protect that faith, the thought of a "patriarch" loyal Rome but as head of the Orthodox faith in Ukraine under some theory that we are Ukrainians first is very troubling. Talk about the ultimate Trojan Horse. Let's put it this way, I would feel much more comfortable in a Orthodox Church, Ukrainian, Russian, etc., than I would in any Catholic Church, even if they are using the Greek language. The Orthodox need to stand up and defend their faith and they should not worry if that threat masked in some nationalistic term.

Dear jporthodox,
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to respond to your comments earlier but I was traveling. First of all I hope you understand that I'm not attacking the orthodox faith on the contrary I have a lot of respect for you guys I even attend Monday evening services to the Mother of God every week at the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Brazil and I'm Ukrainian Greek Catholic. I have also attended some services at the Syrian Orthodox Church as well. I guess its difficult for you to understand the situation of the Ukrainian people. These people (the Ukrainians) of both faiths have suffered greatly because of outside influences. I guess we are just tired of people from other countries telling us what to do and telling us what is right and what is wrong.I'm sure that the majority of the Ukrainian people have no intention at all at being hostile to the Orthodox faith or betraing it and niether to the Catholic faithful because that is for sure not the work of God but the work of very weak, poor and short sighted men. I will not give you a lecture of Ukrainian history because it's very long, but I think that before you make any judgement of a nation's patriotism and spirituality you need to understand these people and their true history better.
Once again with all respect, and peace to you my Greek Orthodox friend,
Lauro

Dear jporthodox,

Ah, but there's the rub!

To be "Ukrainian first" also means to hold to the Byzantine-Greek tradition which is seen as part of that composite Ukrainian identity.

The Latin Church just doesn't "do it" for the Ukrainians and I think there is a lot of antipathy against the Latins for historical reasons similar to those of the Greeks.

The fact is that after all is said and done, an Orthodox Ukrainian (take some of my uncles - please . . . ) will admit that a Ukrainian Catholic is truly "Ukrainian" if he adheres to non-Latinized liturgical forms, and is otherwise close to the Orthodox externals as much as possible.

But if you are seen as RC, then you are a "Khrun" or traitor . . .

This is a point that Orthoman, our friend, likes to raise on occasion (don't you just love him?).

But let's remember that in the 17th century, if you were an Eastern Slav, either Ukrainian or Russian, and were asked your ethnicity, the answer would be "Orthodox." If you were a Western Slav, your answer would be "Catholic."

If the same people were asked their language, the answer would have been "Orthodox" too!

Both the Greek and Russian Churches were, at one point, imperial Churches that practised Hellenization and Russification of their constituent ethnic minorities respectively.

Those ideologies saw themselves as cutting across the "banality" of local cultural/national identities, in the interests of ultimate cultural assimilation and domination, of course.

The Orthodox Churches have historically defined themselves in terms of national Churches, even the national Churches that have sought and now seek independence of their former imperial masters, whether Greek, Serbian or Russian.

We should all learn forgiveness, of course.

But the fact of the cultural-religious fusion in Orthodoxy is incontrovertible.

Alex

Ok well, then go ahead and protect your faith, noone is stopping you. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch is the Patriarch for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and not the Patriarch for the Orthodox in Ukraine. Please! Don't draw paranoid conclusions that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is trying to take over the Orthodox Church, lest you wish to fall into the same mindless religiousity and polemics that the Russian Orthodox Church professes. The single biggest threat to Orthodoxy in Ukraine is the ROC, with all of their "spiritual" fighting and crowbars, taking over Ukrainian Churches by force and hospitalizing Ukrainian Orthodox priests and laity in the name of their "imperial canonical jurisdiction"! And every time they do five more Ukrainians become protestants!

Protect your faith if you wish. But I would much rather see the Orthodox proclaim their faith boldly, work together in true Christian heritage, and (Quick! Get a Rope!) love one another. And God Forbid the Orthodox in Ukraine meet the pastoral needs of their people and teach them the faith, instead of arguing about "Canonical jurisdiction".

And don't place the scapegoat of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarchate. We (the Ruthenian Orthodox Church of Kyiv) left Union with Constantinople in part because of her inability to lead the Kyivan Church and our own political crisis within the "Roman Catholic" Polish- Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Unfortunately, Rome was no more pastoral than was Constantinople.

On a side note:

Patriarch Bartholemew celebrated the Divine Liturgy in Ravenna, Italy last month and gave the order to his Deacons to allow all those who approach the Eucharist to receive, Orthodox and CATHOLIC. So maybe we will all be one united church and you will not have to worry about whether the Patriarch is Catholic or Orthodox in Ukraine, because it won't matter. But then again, the Russians would never agree to such a union, and would probably continue to nurture their imperialist ideologies of Church and State in the Mother of all Russian cities (and culture I might add) Kyiv.

ALity

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

:-) Gee, ALity, I think I made the same set of points a few days ago, and was told this was a thread about the new university, not jurisdictional disputes.

Dear Tim,

You are quite right.

Unless those bishops and patriarchs want to go back to university, the whole discussion should be posted on another thread.

Alex

Your right Tim

I could not control my keyboard after reading some of jporthodox's posts. A moment of weakness

Yes, a university!

Ality

To Piotr Siwicki:

You think that you're so cool because you are from the KUL? (...with your Bar Wars and your Whopper Zestaw)

Listen, the LTA itself already has a faculty of the Humanities including History, Philosophy, and various Languages. Once classes at the YKY actually begin, their classes offered will epxand. As for recognition of theology and accreditation: as you are probably from Ukraine (or have been to that country), you will understand that those beauracrats in Kyiv only understand action. That is why now is the time to open YKY (and also the time for us to demand that our church be recognized as a Patriarchate.) The recognition of Theology in Ukraine and the LTA and YKY's official accredition are on the horizon.

And on another point, no one ever said that the Sheptytsky Insitute in Ottawa was a university. It's name states that it is an Institute, but it is part of St. Paul University which is affiliated with the University of Ottawa, where students of the Institute can take courses ranging from Aboriginal Studies to Zoology. Give YKY 20 years and it will have its own wide range of courses in many fields and faculties -- perhaps not Aboriginal Studies or Zoology.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Perhaps they will offer history courses on the true Aboriginal peoples of the Ukrainian territory?

Cultural and other social science/humanities courses are very important for the formation of our priests and contribute greatly to the proper build-up of our ecclesial/cultural identity and that of our Particular Church.

Are you having a good summer so far?

Alex