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Mar 25th, 2025
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There is great Grace in obedience and the Bishops will have to answer to God for their own actions, we for ours." Maximos the Confessor took a rather different stand, I recall.
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A friend of mine says she believes in God, Christ, the Church etc. IN SPITE OF the hierarchy. I see her point.
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Maximos the Confessor took a rather different stand, I recall. Certainly. As have many others. Still, many have also accomplished their goals, while remaining obedient, through prayer and fasting.
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A friend of mine says she believes in God, Christ, the Church etc. IN SPITE OF the hierarchy. I see her point. The Emperor Napoleon I had a contentious relationship with the Catholic Church. At the time he was negotiating the Concordat that restored the Church in France after the Revolution, Napoleon threw a major temper tantrum at the Pope's representative, Cardinal Fesch (who just happened to be Napoleon's uncle). Beside himself with rage, Napoleon expostulated, "If you do not give me what I want, I will destroy the Church!" Cardinal Fesch just smiled wearily and said, "Sire, we bishops have been trying to do that for eighteen hundred years, without success".
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Certainly. As have many others. Still, many have also accomplished their goals, while remaining obedient, through prayer and fasting. That is true. But, in a straight-up matter of right and wrong, obedience is not an excuse or a defense.
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I watched one of the ACROD sunday D/L on their website recently, broadcast from The Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Johnstown, PA. Some observations:
There were no little litanies between the antiphons.
There was no third antiphon.
There were no litanies of the faithful or of the catechumens.
The creed was read and not sung.
The anaphora was read aloud. The priest had a mic and could very clearly be heard, even over the choir singing when they were singing. True. I wonder how much diversity there is in ACROD parishes? My understanding is that these abbreviations are not mandated. Are there parishes which include additional litanies or that sing the Creed?
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I am curious how different the RDL is from the ACROD liturgy. Does someone know where an online version of the ACROD liturgy might be found? Failing that does anyone know how much and from where I can buy the text?
I listened to some bits from the ACROD website and, while the melody sounded very similar to what I was used to, the words were very very different. The ACROD uses the Presov version of Prostopinije, the Greek Catholics use the Mukachevo "dialect" of prostopinije.
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I watched one of the ACROD sunday D/L on their website recently, broadcast from The Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Johnstown, PA. Some observations:
There were no little litanies between the antiphons.
There was no third antiphon.
There were no litanies of the faithful or of the catechumens.
The creed was read and not sung.
The anaphora was read aloud. The priest had a mic and could very clearly be heard, even over the choir singing when they were singing. True. I wonder how much diversity there is in ACROD parishes? My understanding is that these abbreviations are not mandated. Are there parishes which include additional litanies or that sing the Creed?When I visited the Hawk Run, Pa ACROD parish, the priest told me that any parish may take the full liturgy, but most don't.
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Are there parishes which include additional litanies or that sing the Creed? We sing the Creed every liturgy. We don't take the additional litanies between the antiphons every week but do about 20% of the year.
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In getting back on topic, its interesting to remind everyone that apathy is the opposite of caring and love. It appears that the finality of the RDL has set in for everyone and that truly a great deal of apathy exists to it and the BCA in general.
For those who disagree, I sadly think that the closing of Holy Ghost in Cleveland in the upcoming couple of weeks is just the beginning of more to come. What proof do I have, none other than looking at the lack of congregations at BCA churches in general in Northeast Ohio, looking at the demographic make up of the congregations, adding 15 years to the folks in the pews and then visualizing what the church looks like then. In spite of advances in science, older people don't reproduce, that's just the way it is..........
Monomakh
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When the general exodus from Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and the other states of the Homeland stops, then the exodus from the Byzantine Catholic Churches in that area will also stop. When there are no jobs, who leaves and who stays? The young and the old respectively. So congregations will shrink and get older, too. On the other hand, congregations outside the traditional Homeland will tend to be younger, larger and more dynamic. The old parishes were likely to die because of shifts in demography combined with an attitude that discouraged evangelization. The RDL is only accelerating that process. On the other hand, the RDL has had a devastating effect on younger parishes that still had growth potential. The Byzantine Catholic Church could stand the loss of many of its older parishes, but it cannot stand the loss of its newer ones, because they were the seed corn.
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"On the other hand, the RDL has had a devastating effect on younger parishes that still had growth potential. The Byzantine Catholic Church could stand the loss of many of its older parishes, but it cannot stand the loss of its newer ones, because they were the seed corn."
Stuart, can you identify which parishes?
Last edited by Anna; 10/15/09 07:06 PM.
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One that was once near and dear to my heart.
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Wasn't one of the heresies accepted by bishops but denounced by the people? Had the people just obeyed... Even with obedience it's necessary to discern when and how to do so.
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Well, there are a lot of heresies that were accepted by the bishops and rejected by the people, particularly the monastics (who, interestingly, take vows that include "obedience"). As I alluded, the classic example is St. Maximos the Confessor, who was not even an ordained minister, but just a monastic. He opposed the monothelite heresy, practically alone, when the entire synod of the Church of Constantinople had accepted that error. He is used as a exemplar in Shown to Be Holy: An Introduction to Eastern Christian Moral Thought, one of the God With Us catechist preparation monographs: Thus, the monk St. Maximos the Confessor opposed the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Alexandria almost singlehandedly during the sixth century Monothelite controversy. He rejected his own Church's bishops, saying, "When I see the Church of Constantinople as it was formerly, I will enter into communion with it without any exhortation on the part of men. But while there are heretical temptations within it, and while heretics are its bishops, no word or deed will ever convince me to enter into communion with it" (Anathasius of Rome, The Life of Our Holy Father, Maximos the Confessor). Within a short time, the Church reversed itself and accepted Maximos' teaching.
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