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Merci mon fr�re!


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Well the Diocesan Conference was held for the Sourozh Diocese with the Committee of Enquiry present. It seems that there is a difference of opinons though to what has taken place. Please keep in mind this all transpired before the announcement on the 8th of June of Bishop Basil's integration into the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Letter of Concern to Moscow Patriarch [dioceseinfo.org]

MP News Release concerning Sourozh Conference [mospat.ru]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Dear Father Anthony,

Quote
If I had made a similar remark on a thread dealing with the Eastern Churches or the Roman Catholic Church undergoing the same type of strife, not only would I have been deemed insensitive, but may have created a great furor among the different posters I have come to respect and love on this forum, and that would include you.
I definitely agree with you that we Catholics ought to (but often don't) show the same respect toward Orthodox posters as we expect from them. But to be fair to us (Catholics), it should be borne in mind that Alex has also said a number of things that have offended Catholics on this board as well, particularly those Catholics who are on the moderate-to-conservative side.
(Leaving aside the recent discussion about the term "uniate", one has only to consider the frequent insinuations regarding the motives for certain Vatican decisions, such as not elevating Major Archbishop Lubomyr to the rank of Patriarch. Then of course there are the statements which are offensive to Orthodox and Catholics ... )

I think C.S. Lewis said it best:

Quote
Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from the borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any communion. This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where he truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests at the centre of each there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with the same voice.
(Mere Christianity, page 9.)
Wise man!

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Dear Friends,

So the good news is that I am perceived as being offensive to EVERYONE! smile

I suppose there is some virtue in that . . .

However, that was never my intention, to be offensive to either Orthodox or Latin Catholics.

One could throw into the mix criticisms I've made of my own UGCC.

Engaging in conversations is always so, well, engaging. Being critical is a necessary component to that, as is that of levity.

However, in both cases of "offensiveness" that I'm being accused of here, I simply don't accept that I am being offensive as the statements I have made are being taken out of their context.

When the issue of the Orthodox Bishop seeking transfer from the MP was brought up, I responded at one point with, "Where do I go to get transferred?"

That was taken as offensive to Orthodoxy, and some other epithets were applied to me, and, as I am led to understand and do not doubt, a number of others here privately made their anger and consternation about this known to the Moderator.

I still do not see how my statement above can be taken as offensive against Orthodoxy, that I am for the breakup of Orthodoxy etc.

First of all, I am not Orthodox so from what could I hope to be transferred? From the Moscow Patriarchate like the Bishop in Britain? How is that possible?

That statement could only have a context concerning my union with Rome alone! That was thinking out loud (as I've done on a number of occasions over the years) about either rethinking one's union with Rome or else leaving it altogether. The Orthodox Bishop in question considered leaving the MP jurisdiction to achieve, in his mind, a greater good. That is also something that I've raised here as a question respecting union with Rome for Eastern Catholics. That statement was simply affirming that again.

And while I know I will be accused of "reinterpreting what I said after the fact," the fact is that I know what I intended and I don't appreciate motives being imputed to me in so doing, as the Moderator seems, I believe, to have done. I don't accept his interpretation of my statement, I find it offensive but I won't argue the point and have tried to make peace for the sake of peace in Christ.

That doesn't change my perception of the injustice meted out to me as an Eastern Catholic and participant here for which I do not ask for an apology as no apology would be forthcoming since it is clear my argument is not accepted as valid by the Moderator and presumably those who agree with him.

Secondly, the charge that I have offended Eastern Catholics by the use of "Uniate" is one that I find more amusing than substantive.

My accuser has, on another thread, quoted me out of context to show contradiction in my position.

Again, context is all-important. "Uniate" is an offensive term, but it does have wide usage among many writers and ecclesial commentators who intend no offense by it.

In discussions on this forum it is sometimes used to denote a certain EC attitude of avowed "second-class Catholic citizenship" that was formerly the fertile ground for the acceptance of Latinizations in our Churches.

That is persists among EC bishops, clergy and laity is an established fact and to call a spade a spade, or "Uniate attitudes" is simply to call a spade a spade.

The quote that was brought against me tried to show that I contradicted myself in calling on others who use the term "Uniate" to apologise and to cease and desist.

That is true and there is nothing contradictory about that position.

To call all EC's "Uniates" i.e. to be in possession of the Uniate mentality or, as I've also said, "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite" as certain Latin Catholics and Orthodox writers have referred to EC's (e.g. even the great Fr. Lev Gillet) - this is simply offensive.

No one is denying there are EC's who are pro-Latin in ecclesial and devotional attitudes and there is nothing wrong in denoting them, in discussions, as "Uniates." Indeed, a number of them would welcome that designation.

In short, the charge that I have offended EC's by calling them "Uniates" is simply vicious since I have NEVER referred to all EC's as Uniates.

As for motives of the Vatican in not affirming the de facto Patriarchal status of the UGCC - these do not emanate from me, but from MANY, including those outside the UGCC. IF they are offensive to those who uncritically defend the Vatican's Ost-politik, as Peter seems to be, then that same ost-politik is gravely offensive to the UGCC and its many martyrs for union with Rome. Again, this is something that does not originate with myself and I can't believe I'm reading this on this forum.

In both cases, my own explanations have been either ignored, denied or else dismissed. I find that simply and deeply offensive and unjust.

It is said that familiarity breeds contempt. And although I have truly been angry and upset with posters here in the past, I do feel that the contempt with which I have been treated here of late is unjustifiable and is disrespectful in the extreme toward me as a person and a participant of this forum.

The Administrator and others have sometimes charged me with being overly sensitive and also with being egotistical and self-absorbed, as well as unstable as shown in a number of "huffs" and "I'm leaving here" statements by me that are ultimately and, in time, reversed by my addiction to participation here.

That is probably all true, as is also the fact that I'm quick to apologise and have truly lost any remaining credibility here that I may yet have (and that is a question too). Certainly, the charges of offensiveness given here point to me having no credibility and that is doubtless my fault too.

All I know is that when one's words are taken out of context and motives are imputed, the very basis for meaningful and respectful conversation has been removed.

Then it's not a question of a troublesome, unstable poster with a history of "comings and goings" doing one more retake - then it's simply a question of removing oneself from a context that will no longer admit that person to a respectful participation permanently.

If criticism of the Vatican, the MP, the Latin Church, the UGCC or anyone else is in violation of the rules of the Forum, then I am guilty as charged. To be offensive to anyone, IS in violation against the rules of the Forum. If the former implies the latter, however, then any basis for meaningful, critical discussion has been removed.

(And what the quote from C.S. Lewis above has to do with anything here is truly beyond me.)

Anyway, I apologise for the perception of my viciousness and for any other negative thing emanating from me here.

From now on, I'll keep contentious religious issues to myself.

Cheers everyone and God bless!

Alex

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I found this at http://www.sourozh.org/info/

A letter to the faithful from Archbishop Innokenty of Korsun:

http://www.sourozh.org/info/letters/letter1_110606.html

Lord have mercy!

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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB] Dear Friends,

So the good news is that I am perceived as being offensive to EVERYONE! smile

I suppose there is some virtue in that . . .
Is there a condensed version? I'd try my hand at one but that would turn out to be a parody and then you'd really be sore. smile

You might try being happy with the times you are clearly and well spoken, same as we are happy when you are, and let the rest go.

You might think to yourself that people respect you more when you don't write four page self-justifications simply because some ill-advised flippancy got rejected.

Eli

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Quote
Originally posted by Michael B:
I found this at http://www.sourozh.org/info/

A letter to the faithful from Archbishop Innokenty of Korsun:

http://www.sourozh.org/info/letters/letter1_110606.html

Lord have mercy!
Dear Michael,

Thanks for the links. Now we have another source for information.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Quote
"But to be fair to us (Catholics), it should be borne in mind that Alex has also said a number of things that have offended Catholics on this board as well, particularly those Catholics who are on the moderate-to-conservative side."
Dear Peter,

If I may interject as a fellow poster--With all due respect and truly hoping that I will not offend you, it is my humble opinion that discussing people publicly like that *could* be considered uncharitable.

Perhaps if you would have addressed Alex directly with your thoughts and feelings, it would have been more polite than discussing him with Fr. Anthony publicly. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. smile

Alex is a valued poster here, and I believe that he deserves respect, whether we agree with him or not. Infact, whether he and I see eye to eye on absolutely everything, I will always honor him for defending me to some very rude posters here when I first joined this forum. I was the only Greek Orthodox here at the time, and I was spoken to quite rudely. Had it not been for the Christian kindness of Alex, I would have left that first day.

In Christ our Lord of love,
Alice

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Alice's point is well taken. This thread or for that fact any thread is not to discuss any particular poster's trangressions indirectly. If there is a problem with a poster's comments they should be specifically directed to them.

I would like to see this discussion remain on track, so with that I would like to close the book on anything else on this thread, but the subject at hand, that being the situation that is ongoing and exists in the UK Orthodox Churches.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Dear Alex you said:

Quote
Dear Friends,

So the good news is that I am perceived as being offensive to EVERYONE!

I suppose there is some virtue in that . . .
I say:

Hee, hee, hee! biggrin You always give us a good laugh, besides you have the capacity of humbling yourself to apologize for any wrongs that you might have committed. Hey! Now how many people are capable of doing that? wink

Seriously though, I have always found you to be open minded and just...aaah! maybe with a little partiality towards the Ukrainians. :rolleyes:

Don't leave us Alex....PLEASE! smile

Zenovia

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Dear Alex,

After giving everything a little thought, I realize that you are an enigma...thus the persecution by those that can't understand you confused . Here you are, probably more highly educated in theology than anyone else, (Well, maybe with the exeception of a few like Apoutheoun and the Administrator John ), and yet you can joke around and be humble enough not to speak with the authority that your education and knowledge entitles you to wink .

Okay, so don't feel bad, saints were enigma's too? Hmmm! you never know :rolleyes: ! Boy I wouldn't want to be the one upsetting you. Yikes eek !

Zenovia

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I am going to ask one last time that this thread be kept on topic. If posts can not be related to the topic of this thread, then they will be deleted. If you wish to comment about other things please start another thread. Posters are urged if they have an issue with others about matters not relating directly to the thread topic to please use the PM system.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Quote
Originally posted by Father Anthony:
I am going to ask one last time that this thread be kept on topic. If posts can not be related to the topic of this thread, then they will be deleted. If you wish to comment about other things please start another thread. Posters are urged if they have an issue with others about matters not relating directly to the thread topic to please use the PM system.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator
Father,

I basically agree with what your saying. But, with all due respect to the rules of the forum, I believe I should be permitted at least a very brief response to what Alice said to me.

To that end, I would like to say simply that I think her statement is clearly biased (especially for a moderator) -- particularly since she never told Alex that what *he* was saying "*could* be considered uncharitable", or that the people *he* was speaking to/about "deserve respect, whether we agree with [them] or not", etc.

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Keep checking what is now the Amphipolis web-site; they continue to add to it frequently (I have a low pain threshold when it comes to that ghastly neologism "update"). Today's news is that a considerable number of members of the Surozh diocesan council seems to have moved in the direction of Amphipolis.

I should like to know - but I don't know - what, if anything, happened at the cathedral in Ennismore Gardens this past Sunday, and where Bishop Basil of Amphipolis served this past Sunday.

Incognitus

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Any Forum friends in London? Did anyone attend the Liturgy at the Cathedral on Sunday?

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