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Today the Apostolic Constitution ANGLICANORUM COETIBUS to integrate the ex-Anglicans has been issued. Anglicanorum coetibus [ vatican.va] And here the complementary norms [ vatican.va] Intresting the definition of role of the pope: the successor of Peter, mandated by the Lord Jesus to guarantee the unity of the episcopate and to preside over and safeguard the universal communion of all the Churches ...
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Very neat! I found two notes interesting. One I see as a positive for the future of married clergy for this new ordinary and the other I find kinda of a stumbling block for some Anglicans coming in. I wonder others opinions. Both from Article Six of the Complementary norms- The Clergy. 1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate. So I wonder then, does this mean that a married man could in theory be ordained who was never an Anglican Cleric? 2. Those who have been previously ordained in the Catholic Church and subsequently have become Anglicans, may not exercise sacred ministry in the Ordinariate. Anglican clergy who are in irregular marriage situations may not be accepted for Holy Orders in the Ordinariate. I wonder if this will be a stumbling block for some. I believe the TAC Archbishop was a Catholic Priest at one time and has been married twice. So he would have to be a laymen, not a cleric? Are there many TAC/Anglican priests who are former Roman Catholics? Could exceptions be made? I don't think so but I was wondering if others had more insite. Overall truly a great thing Pope is doing for the Church and her unity!
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The Constitution was discussed by my Anglo-Catholic friends earlier today. The following is my observations on a couple of interesting points: I found this provision of Section V interesting: This power [i.e., of the Ordinariate] is to be exercised jointly with that of the local Diocesan Bishop, in those cases provided for in the Complementary Norms. That would seem to mean the success of any given Ordinariate is to a great extent dependent on the good will and cooperation of the local Latin bishop, many of whom have not been sympathetic to Anglo-Catholics. Look to a lot of friction in this area, until Rome gets out the sand paper and grease. Also interesting: Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1. Look for a rush to the wedding chapel by Anglican clergy looking to switch. Also not clear is the status of widowed and remarried clergy. Section VII opens the door to the reception of Anglican Benedictines and other monastics, separate from those orders as they exist in the Latin Church: VII. The Ordinary, with the approval of the Holy See, can erect new Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, with the right to call their members to Holy Orders, according to the norms of canon law. Institutes of Consecrated Life originating in the Anglican Communion and entering into full communion with the Catholic Church may also be placed under his jurisdiction by mutual consent. Section V of the Supplementary Norms appears to relegate the Anglicans to ghetto status in perpetuity. Welcome to uniatism, ca. 1900: Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate. That is, only former Anglicans can belong to the Ordinariate. Those baptized into the Catholic Church, presumably including both those who have always been members of the Catholic Church, as well as those who converted to the Anglican Church at some point, come under the jurisdiction of the Latin bishop. They cannot transfer to a parish of the Ordinariate, or, theoretically, be married there, have their children baptized there, or even be buried there. I doubt they would go so far as to prevent them from receiving communion there (which was the case with regard to Latins in the so-called "Eastern Rites" until the middle of the 20th century). This is a can of worms, because there are a number of special cases that need to be considered, e.g.: 1. Someone who was baptized as a Catholic in infancy, whose parents then became Anglicans and raised him as such. 2. A Latin who married an Anglican who later joined an Ordinariate 3. A Latin who marries a member of the Ordinariate 4. A non-Catholic, non-Anglican who wishes to convert to Catholicism according to the Anglican usage. 5. Children of marriages between a Roman Catholic and a member of the Ordinariate. 6. Children of a marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Anglican who joins the Ordinariate I'm sure the canon lawyers will find themselves confronting many other instances of which I could not think. At least this will keep them off the streets.
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This power [i.e., of the Ordinariate] is to be exercised jointly with that of the local Diocesan Bishop, in those cases provided for in the Complementary Norms. Well, the classical structure of every Apostolic Church is the diocese. The "personal ordinariate" is a new solution that anyway cannot redefine completly the classical structure of the dioceses. Actually the "personal ordinariate", according to this document, is "vicarious", i.e. exercised in the name of the pope. Consider alsoe that the ordianry of the "personal ordinariate" is not requested to be a bishop. That means that this new structure cannot stand only by-itself, but it need to lean on a some other solid structures as the papacy through the diocesis. Otherwise our Orthodox friends would complain for this "innovaton" Section V of the Supplementary Norms appears to relegate the Anglicans to ghetto status in perpetuity. Welcome to uniatism, ca. 1900: Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate. That is, only former Anglicans can belong to the Ordinariate. Those baptized into the Catholic Church, presumably including both those who have always been members of the Catholic Church, as well as those who converted to the Anglican Church at some point, come under the jurisdiction of the Latin bishop. They cannot transfer to a parish of the Ordinariate, or, theoretically, be married there, have their children baptized there, or even be buried there. I doubt they would go so far as to prevent them from receiving communion there (which was the case with regard to Latins in the so-called "Eastern Rites" until the middle of the 20th century). I thing you are misunderstanding this issue. Of course there will be full inter-communion between this new "personal ordinariate" and all the other parts of the Catholic Church, as it is for the Easter Rites (and as it was before the middle of the 20th century) The main concern are the Latin seminarists that would enter in these personal ordinariate only in order to marry before ordination: this change of rite is forbidden. 1. Someone who was baptized as a Catholic in infancy, whose parents then became Anglicans and raised him as such.
2. A Latin who married an Anglican who later joined an Ordinariate
3. A Latin who marries a member of the Ordinariate
4. A non-Catholic, non-Anglican who wishes to convert to Catholicism according to the Anglican usage.
5. Children of marriages between a Roman Catholic and a member of the Ordinariate.
6. Children of a marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Anglican who joins the Ordinariate Consider that this apostolic constitution in fact approves the Anglican Rite, with rules more or less similar to the ones of the Eastern Catholic rites
Last edited by antv; 11/09/09 04:12 PM.
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Consider that this apostolic constitution in fact approves the Anglican Rite, with rules more or less similar to the ones of the Eastern Catholic rites Except that the Eastern Catholic "rites" are in fact sui juris Churches, with their own autonomous hierarchy, liturgy, theology, spirituality, theology, doctrine and discipline by right, not merely dispensation. That's why the Anglican Ordinariates remind me of "Uniatism 2.0"--these are not Churches, they are a "rite" within a Church that is permitted to do certain things by dispensation. The explicit understanding is the Anglican rite is an exception to the rule, and that the Roman rite is normative for the Latin Church. And, as numerous posts on this forum testify, it is precisely such issues as who is and is not a member of a particular ritual Church that occupy so much time in the Chanceries. The situation with regard to the Anglicans is full of ambiguities and liable to the kinds of abuses to which Eastern Catholics were subjected less than a century ago; e.g., Latins not being allowed to receive the Eucharist in Eastern "rite" churches; Latin rite girls actively discourged (if not outright forbidden) to marry Eastern rite boys (but not vice versa), all with the intention of slowly whittling down our numbers. The situation in the Ordinariates has the potential to go the same way.
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Consider that this apostolic constitution in fact approves the Anglican Rite, with rules more or less similar to the ones of the Eastern Catholic rites Except that the Eastern Catholic "rites" are in fact sui juris Churches, with their own autonomous hierarchy, liturgy, theology, spirituality, theology, doctrine and discipline by right, not merely dispensation. That's why the Anglican Ordinariates remind me of "Uniatism 2.0"--these are not Churches, they are a "rite" within a Church that is permitted to do certain things by dispensation. The explicit understanding is the Anglican rite is an exception to the rule, and that the Roman rite is normative for the Latin Church. The Roman Rite is NOT normative for the Latin Church: for example I belong to the Ambrosian Rite, which is an Western Rite, but not at all the Roman rite. And I would suggest that what is given the the former-Anglicans (which anyway -differently from the Eastern Catholic Churches- are part of the West Chuch) is not only a Rite, but also a spiritality, a tradition, and a jurisdiction. Something less than a suis juris Church, but something more to what we Ambrosians have. I repeat: the Anglicans are part of the West Church, so it is a non-sense to compare it to the Estern Churches AThe situation with regard to the Anglicans is full of ambiguities and liable to the kinds of abuses to which Eastern Catholics were subjected less than a century ago; e.g., Latins not being allowed to receive the Eucharist in Eastern "rite" churches; Latin rite girls actively discourged (if not outright forbidden) to marry Eastern rite boys (but not vice versa), all with the intention of slowly whittling down our numbers. The situation in the Ordinariates has the potential to go the same way. This is a hoax. Do you have any information that the Latins would not be allowed to take Communion in the new "Personal Ordiariates"? Do you have any information about that the Latin girls wil not be allowed to marry Anglican of the new "Personal Ordiariates"? I suppose you dont...
Last edited by antv; 11/09/09 05:14 PM.
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I merely recounted incidents from the history of the Eastern Catholic Churches. I also know that the majority of bishops in the United States are about as hostile to the reception of the Anglicans as their predecessors were to the arrival of the "uniates". Unless the bishops cooperate with the Ordinariates, there will be problems.
Furthermore, even to this day, Eastern Catholics run into all sorts of jurisdictional difficulties resulting from "mixed" marriages with Latin Catholics--and most of them parallel the potential problems I outlined for the Anglicans: a child baptized into the Latin Church but raised as an Eastern Catholic suddenly discovers that he is not Eastern Catholic after all, and cannot be married in the Church where he has attended Liturgy all his life; conversely, an Eastern Catholic raised in the Latin Church suddenly discovers he is not a Latin after all, and thus his child cannot be baptized in the church he has attended all his life. There is also a canon, which parallels some of the supplementary norms, that says a Protestant must be received into the Latin Church, even if he has been evangelized and catechized by an Eastern Church. In the case of the Anglican Ordinariates, it would seem that a non-Anglican Protestant would have to be received into the Roman rite, even if he was evangelized by an Anglican Ordinariate Parish--and a prickly Latin bishop could make it stick, too.
All of the hypothetical problems I outlined regarding children of mixed marriages have their parallels in the Eastern Catholic Churches. I speak from experience.
And, inter alia, in both the United States and the United Kingdom, which are the two places where the Constitution has any relevance, yes, the Roman rite is normative for the Latin Church. The Ambrosian Rite can only be celebrated in Milan and the surrounding dioceses in northern Italy; the Mozerabic rite can only be celebrated in its little chapel in Toledo; the rites of the various religious orders can only be celebrated in their chapels. They are all the exception, not the rule. Would that it were otherwise, but it is an indisputable fact that the Latin bishops in the United States are steadfastly opposed to any sort of liturgical diversity in their jurisdictions.
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antv:
Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!
Stuart speaks from experience and from personal knowledge of what has transpsired in the United States during the past 150 years. Our Eastern Catholic brethren have had their share--and more than their share--of persecution for their practice of the Faith, given the fact that their approach has not been Latin. YOu probably have no direct experience of that in Italy, but the fact that there is an Orthodox Church in America is due largely to the active persecution of Eastern Catholic clergy and laity by the Latin bishops of the United States in the late 19th century. The drastic reduction in their numbers is also due to the hostility of the Latin bishops who lobbied Rome to curtail some of their rights that were supposedly guaranteed under the terms of the various Union agreements of several centuries before--the right of Easter Catholic clergy to be married prior to ordination comes immediately to mind.
As for some of your statements--
Where outside of Milan are Ambrosian priests allowed to establish parishes using your liturgical heritage?
If the Roman usage is not "normative" for the Western Church, where do you find a current Gallican usage--the historical usage of the French Church?
There are parallels in the proposals and Stuart is raising questions based on some very sorry history in the English speaking world, especially the United States. As for your statement that "this is a hoax" I dare say you have a real lack of real understanding of what has gone on in this country over the past 150 years. Italy is Italy and I'd dare to say that nothing similar has happened there because there has never been a mass migration of Eastern Catholics to your country as there was to ours. And I wonder if there was simply no permission for Eastern clergy to even organize parishes for the few that did migrate to your country. They'd have simply been absorbed into the local Latin parish. Except for the seminaries for the Eastern Churches established in Rome and some Eastern parishes native to southern Italy, where are there large numbers of Eastern Catholics living in Italy?
BOB
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1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate. I think the key word here is "ordinarily eligible" - that means it is still possible if it is for the good of the individual's faith. "Ordinarily" it is not possible for a Catholic to marry an unbaptized individual, but in practice, it is far from unheard of. 2. Those who have been previously ordained in the Catholic Church and subsequently have become Anglicans, may not exercise sacred ministry in the Ordinariate. Anglican clergy who are in irregular marriage situations may not be accepted for Holy Orders in the Ordinariate. The irregularity to marriage would only apply to those who are married multiple times, with living spouses from previous marriages. This is a good rule to re-emphasize to Anglican clergy. Archbp. Hepworth knows this and made his intention quite clear - if the Holy See determines it, he would remain a layman in the Catholic Church. Regarding those Anglican clergy who married after their Anglican ordinations - since Rome does not recognize Anglican orders, they can still be ordained Catholic priests - as long as the old "Dutch touch" didn't make it's way in somehow.
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I swam the Tiber in 1961. I find this story immensely interesting. Long live the Pope of Christian Unity. I pray that he, with the Lord's assistance, will bridge the gap between East and West.
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I, as many others have stated, think this is a marvelous step forward, but with some major issues. The one that keeps running through my mind is: Say there is a man, who at one time was unbaptized, who had a true love and need for the Anglican Patrimony, but at the same time recognized the necessity to be in Communion with the Bishop of Rome so he "joined" the Latin Church. Now this man might have access to an Anglo-Catholic Parish and believes he is called to service in the Ordinariate through Ordained Ministry, what happens with this man?
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"Hard cases make bad law". This hypothetical gentleman could probably find a resolution to his case.
Fr. Serge
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Again, it all depends on the good will of the Latin bishops, whose cooperation is the key to the success of the endeavor.
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Again, it all depends on the good will of the Latin bishops, whose cooperation is the key to the success of the endeavor. Maybe when it comes to financial matters (TAC is very poor, the phrase "exercised jointly"...) - but according to this constitution the Latin bishops have no power to forbid anything - their role is merely to be consulted or informed.
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In almost all cases, the TAC people will be dependent on the Latin ordinary for facilities, financial support, clergy training and just about everything else. They may not forbid, but they can make doing things difficult, if they so desire.
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