www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall This really happened

My spiritual father serves a mostly English speaking community in one of the ethnic SCOBA jurisdictions.Although English is the predominant language(and the only one used by the deacon),ON OCCASION some Slavonic is used there as Russians,Macaedonians, and other Slavs are sometimes present.On one such Sunday,some of those people whom I like to call "English-only fascists" happened upon such a service.Upon hearing Slavonic,they demonstrativly left the church,loudly slamming the door,but proceeded to the church hall,where they stayed until Liturgy was over.Fr.P walked to the hall and asked them if they were the ones who made the disturbance during Liturgy.Upon hearing the affirmative,Fr. said,"Then I have only one word for you,do svidanya(goodbye in Russian) and pointed to the door.The offenders left,loudly promising to telephone the Metropolitan to lodge a complaint.Fr. decided to call the Metropolitan that afternoon to protect himself.He told the Metropolitan the whole story and the Metropolitan said in his accented English,"Father, you made a big mistake."The priests heart sank."Yes," continued the Metropolitan,"do svidanya" is two words,not one!"

I've never run across "English-Only Fascists" in an Eastern Church. Are they common, and where do they congregate?

Fascinating!

This reminds me of late 19th/early 20th century splits in east coast Lutheran congregations brought about by those insisting on German-only liturgy and sermons and those who wanted English services.

There are any number of communities with Lutheran congregations named "First English".

World War One ended these controversies because most folks abandoned their ancestral tongue lest they be regarded as enemy collaborators. That is also when the American flag began to appear in the chancel.

Never saw that one coming. What a way to go from heart failure to total relief!

Reminds me of a story one of my spiritual fathers once told of a man from Russia who told him he didn't quite swing the censer correctly or at the right times. After going over the whole service from the Service Book and all the rubrics, the man still insisted it wasn't the way the priest did it in his village in the old country. God bless you, Father, and your spiritual father, for putting up with the likes of those of us who stand in the body of the temple.

BOB

We (ironically enough) lost most of ours when we lost our SSPX-adherent crowd. When the SSPX started up, they fled.

I don't quite understand why the "latin mass is a must" crowd would demand English over Slavonic, but some did.

Now, a couple of others came and went as well; one was unwilling to trust the liturgy book as a translation of the Slavonic; he didn't stick around. (The blue book by Msgr. Levkulic.)

Without reflecting on their secular politics, I have certainly encountered people who insist on "English only". Drives me bananas - other people also have rights and need pastoral care.

Fr. Serge

Stuart,

They were a not uncommon phenomenon in the early post-VII days - never many in number but very curious folk and pushy all out of proportion to their numbers. They were Latin refugees who did not want English in their own churches, but actually had the temerity to upbraid presbyters in Eastern temples - pointing out that it was 'the way of the East' to worship in the vernacular and, therefore, they should be accomodated by hearing the Divine Liturgy in English. As this was before the SSPX, the majority departed in short order to worship in the small, 'independent' chapels that began to crop up - where they happily worshipped, not in English, but in Latin. Very strange people.

Round 2 were the later arrivals - those aramis describes - most of whom never knew the Mass in Latin, but decided it was a magic tongue, although they were willing to sacrifice and hear English in our churches for the accompanying 'smells and bells'. Once the SSPX became a more present entity, they were gone - thank goodness.

Of course, there are also their counterparts - just as annoying, quite frankly.

Many years,

Neil

But this took place in an OCA parish. Are there militant vernacularists there, too? I'm very comfortable with moving back and forth between languages during the Liturgy, and find it emphasizes the universality of the Church.

Why not? We certainly had 'hard-core' Latins who became dissatisfied with us and moved on to Orthodoxy with the thought in mind that it would be 'liturgically purer' and less likely to succumb to 'liturgical development'. I can well imagine that some of them might well have been militant vernacularists, since English was the only tongue - other than Latin - that most of them knew.

Many years,

Neil

So, as the old saying goes: "If you know several languages, you are a polyglot; if you know two languages you are bilingual; and if you only know one language, you are an American".

What would drive them to be so rude?

Confusion, lack of adequate catechesis and just plain ol' arrogance and fear drive people to rudeness. It's particularly painful to experience it within the context of ecclesial matters.

The Church is in many ways a messed-up society filled with troubled, fallen human beings. It's several other, more positive things as well.

They must be holding some type of grudge. It's sad that they must express their frustration by slamming the doors. It's like when same-sex activists threw condoms at parishioners during the masses they interrupted.

Personally I would love to hear the Slavonic and smell the incense. If I know which prayers are being said or if I had a side-by-side translation in my hand to follow in prayer, I would be able to participate spirituality in the divine liturgy. Their attitude is foreign to me, but I see it in my community too when people rail against the cardinal for not doing what they want him to do when they want him to do it.

It seems to me that if you really are open to the action of God working with and in and through the Litrugy, language doesn't matter. Something like the Father s talk about pure prayer--sometimes it becomes wordless.

I can be in the midst of a parish praying in Slavonic or Greek or Latin or any other language and still know that God is there healing the chapped soul I have when I arrive--battered by a week in the world's trenches. And it takes no language, if I have prepared, as well as I can, to receive the Lord of Lords. The intimacy of that reception of the Gift of Gifts requires no language except my poor thanksgiving.

For some a mix of language is something necessary to heal their soul and that's what we're all there for. Reminds me of the Parable of the Wedding Feast and the man who stared down the King in his own banquet hall. We're all guests at the Liturgy; no one has a right to be there; so it seems that anyone's arrogance there is like the man who stared down the Master in His Own House.

BOB

Bob,

That reminds me of my desire to attend a local Vietnamese mass. The parish is so close, it'd be a shame to miss.

Terry