The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
HopefulOlivia, Quid Est Veritas, Frank O, BC LV, returningtoaxum
6,178 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 340 guests, and 125 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,525
Posts417,643
Members6,178
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
N
Junior Member
Junior Member
N Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
Dear Michael,

I read you post and was quite astonished by it.

Currently I am doing some research (an oral history project) with Old Believers in Australia and Russia. As you seem to be located in New Zealand I would like to ask you, whether you know, where I might find Old Believers on the southern or northern island of New Zealand. I know from my community in Melbourne, that there are some priestless Old Believers living around Christchurch. Might you please help me with an idea, where else Old Believers (popovtsy or bespopovzy) have settled in New Zealand?
You would help me really a lot. Thank you very much.
Regards Steffi

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 12/03/09 01:21 PM. Reason: Retitled Thread
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
Hi Steffi,

I apologise that I have not replied to this post sooner - but I have been away and only today have come back to the world of the web.

I am sorry if I have caused any confusion - but I am not in New Zealand - I am in Australia - Melbourne also actually. I have been here for about 3 years - though am a Sydney boy originally.

I really don't know of any OR or OB in New Zealand - though no doubt if you searched hard enough you would find some there. You know what they say, scratch an ROCOR and you'll see the Old Ritualist underneath! wink

Sorry I couldn't help more.

Misha

PS: Good to be back smile

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by nologo
I would like to ask you, whether you know, where I might find Old Believers on the southern or northern island of New Zealand. I know from my community in Melbourne, that there are some priestless Old Believers living around Christchurch. Might you please help me with an idea, where else Old Believers (popovtsy or bespopovzy) have settled in New Zealand?
You would help me really a lot. Thank you very much.

Steffi,

Father Ambrose is in NZ and may be able to offer some info to you.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/russians-ukrainians-and-baltic-peoples/1

This website suggests there were very few people from old Russia who came as far as New Zealand and if they came for the gold rush it is likely they moved on to the other various gold rushes in Australia.

A personal observation is that the fortifications contructed to protect the seaward entrance to Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne were started, or beefed up because the various colonial governments were quiet convinved that they would be attacked by the Russian Empire. NZ was also caught up in this mind set and also had coastal fortification that were prepared for a Russian Attack that never came. I dont think Russian were to be encouraged to settle until after WWI.

cool

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Ressurrecting this thread. Somebody recently told me there were three Old Believer jurisdictions in Sydney. I thought there were only two; Bela Krinitsa and a house church I thought was loosely affiliated to Novozybkovskaya (I could be wrong on that however).

Anyone got any ideas on the third? The information came from Harbin Russians with Old Believer family so I believe it to be reliable.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
It appears that in Sydney the Metropolitan of Moscow and All Rus' has supplied a priest for the split from the large parish which belongs to the Metropolitan of Bielaia Krinitsa.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
Hristos Voskrese!

Father Serge is indeed correct, there is a Church under the Moscow Metropolitan, and it would be fair to call them a 'split' though I am not sure how they would take to that term themselves. They don't have issue with our formal Heirarchy (or validity of such) or the belief system in place - it is literally 'a people issue' they have - with parishoners and clergy specifically; a sad state of affairs indeed . They are located some 2 or 3 kms from the proper Sydney parish under the Belaya Krinitsa concorde. Having said that, when a resident priest is not at their 'home church', many return to the BK one. Only the 'die-hards' remain at the smaller one. It is upsetting as many families may be split between the two. I look to my Grandmother - her sister goes to that Church, as do most of her children and grandchildren - whilst my Grandmother and her other sister (and of all us off-spring) went/go only to the other. I have been to the other one twice - once for a funeral and once to welcome a visiting bishop.

I digress.


The third Church issue interests me. I have a theory on this. There are some Old Calendar Greek Churches in Sydney which are sometimes wrongly identified as Old Ritualists (well not wrongly, but when we take Old Ritualist to mean Russian Old-Rite it causes confusion). However - I dont believe this is the 'third church' of which we have heard reference to. I believe it may be the Old Believers proper - and by that I mean the bezpopovsty. Yes, most bezpopovtsy ended up (logically enough) as part of the BK Church, though there are still those that refuse the priesthood (though who they are and where to find them I would have no idea). The only issue is that they would certainly not have any Churches of their own when it comes to physical buildings, nor would they be a 'congregation' as such in one cluster, but rather just more scattered families I would imagine. Still, reference to a 'Church' does not always mean a building with a dome on the top of it, does it now?

Perhaps the BK Church in Melbourne was seen as the third church? Perhaps even one of the ROCOR may have ben mistaken for an Old Rite Church? The ROCOR tend to be somewhat more conversative at some parishes???... confused

My last suggestion would be (and I think the most plausible), that as a result of the split in the ROCOR over the unification with MP, perhaps the separated ROCOR churches which have popped up throughout NSW may have been mistaken as Old Rite - as they are seen as Russian Orthodox - but of a 'different' jurisdiction and are in sense, "Raskolniki" (just like the Old Rite) for not accepting church changes?... It may be a possibility?.... There is a lot of tension between these two groups, and I believe one such church was set up directly across the road from the other - which could result in them being seen as 'schismatics'?? I wont comment on that any more as I know nothing about their separation and don't want to offend anyone with erroneous comments...

I can't think of any other reasons to be honest with you. If anyone hears any more on this - I admit myself curious...

Last edited by Michael78; 04/18/10 11:49 PM.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Definitely not any of the ROCOR options. There are three ex-ROCOR parishes in Sydney, and each is of a different jurisdiction, but they could not have been confused in this instance.

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
Had a little thought... my Grandmother used to refer to "Zhenskii Khram" (Women's Chapel?) which was basically a room in a house, where some traditionalists (and only women at that) prayed together on a Sunday - I believe a few minutes walk from the BK church is based. (it was once a very slavic area, as the Russian Gospel hall is one street away, and the Slovenian [or Slovakian???] Catholic Church on the same block).... It was not a church, never pretended to be one, and was not associated with any jurisdiction at all - from what I remember my late Grandmother telling me. But the term Zhenskii "Khram" might have lead to some people thinking of this as a different Old Rite "Church" in its own right. My mother herself is a Harbintsi Russian and would refer to it as the Women's "Church" - perhaps how you were given the information... maybe?...

Do you think this could be the answer? I know literally nothing about this particular gathering of women (I guess they were bezpopovsty) other than what I have posted here. I am visiting my mother on the weekend, so will see what she knows - though I doubt it is anymore than I have posted already.

The plot thickens...

-On a side issue - do you mean that the three 'breakaway' churches (I don't know what the proper term is) in the ROCOR (Australia) are not in communion with eachother, but have gone in three separate directions simultaneously? Any hope for reconciliation, or has any recon happened yet?

May all Eastern Churches unite together...

Misha

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Misha,

yes that is my understanding of the three breakaway ROCOR churches.They MAY have been united at one point but not now.

You might be right on the women's chapel.

Out of interest, any idea what prayers were used at the women's chapel? Would it have just been morning prayer and akathists, or would they have attempted reader's services?

Last edited by Otsheylnik; 04/19/10 07:48 PM.
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1
N
Junior Member
Junior Member
N Offline
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1
Dear Michail thank you for the memories!

Irish Melkite : I have written a mail to Father Ambrose. If you know more about sellements please write me

Kind regards,
Nikolay


Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0