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There are still situations that unofficially go on in this country. Latin bishops are hostile to their Eastern brethren in many cases and the Latin clergy have a distain for our Eastern Catholic brethren. Many of us here have had personal experience of these things. May I suggest that you understand that your experience in Italy is not the norm in many palces, especially in the United States about which place the statements made refer. The attitude is not universal, however. For example, Bishop Pepe of the Las Vegas Diocese came to Fr. Marcus' ordination in our church, and joined our clergy inside the altar for the Anaphora. He then hired Fr. Marcus to help in one of his parishes, and then appointed him to his Chancery wone day a week. Even before change of ritual came across Fr. Marcus' desk in the Latin Diocese, Bishop Pepe was *very* quick to sign the change of ritual forms for Protestant converts to the eastern parishes in his jurisdiction (two then, now three plus two or three missions). (and I've been to a couple of his Masses as a KofC honor guard. Though I still cringe at the Music, particularly the Responsorial Psalm, the rest is quite reverent.) hawk
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I was rummaging around Zenit this evening and found this. Since it relates to the original post and the speculation surrounding it, I thought it was relevant to the discussion. BOB ZE09110912 - 2009-11-09 Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-27501?l=englishCelibacy as a Rule Still in Force for AnglicansOrdination of Married Men to Come Case by Case VATICAN CITY, NOV. 9, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI's apostolic constitution establishing personal ordinariates for Anglicans in communion with Rome does not alter the discipline of clerical celibacy nor the esteem the Church has for this practice, the Vatican clarified. This clarification was given today in a statement from the Vatican announcing "Anglicanorum Coetibus," Benedict XVI's apostolic constitution for Anglicans who want to enter the Catholic Church. Complementary norms and an official commentary were also published. The constitution states: "Those who ministered as Anglican deacons, priests, or bishops, and who fulfill the requisites established by canon law and are not impeded by irregularities or other impediments may be accepted by the Ordinary as candidates for Holy Orders in the Catholic Church. "In the case of married ministers, the norms established in the Encyclical Letter of Pope Paul VI 'Sacerdotalis coelibatus,' n. 4215 and in the Statement 'In June' are to be observed. Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1." This practice is nothing new and has already been in use for Anglican priests who have come into communion with Rome on an individual basis. The question nevertheless arose after last month's announcement of the constitution whether married seminarians would be able to become priests. The document clarifies: "The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula) will admit only celibate men to the order of presbyter. He may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from can. 277, §1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See." --- --- --- On ZENIT's Web page: Anglicanorum coetibus: www.zenit.org/article-27490?l=english [ zenit.org] Complementary norms: www.zenit.org/article-27491?l=english [ zenit.org] Official commentary: www.zenit.org/article-27492?l=english [ zenit.org]
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Interesting links, Bob. Thank you.
Of note, admission to seminaries of the Ordinariate is limited to those who are now members of the Anglican Ordinariate or are subsequently received into communion from the Anglican Church.
This answers a question raised a while back in this thread. In effect, unless there is an on-going stream of such receptions, the life expectancy of the Ordinariate may be that of a few generations, after which time it seems destined to fade into a historical footnote for lack of presbyters, unless some future provision allows for 'bi-usage'(?) priests.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Reread it, Neil. It's not received members, it's just members of the Ordinariate.
It's the same position the ECC's were in the US in the 1980's... Each married candidate must be approved by Rome. Expect the married candidates to have to prove a decade of Anglo-catholicism, either by conversion from Anglicanism, or by 10 years of registry in the parish.
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Vaticanese is often an arcane mode of expression. In this case, the point is that a window of opportunity remains open for the ordination of married men to the presbyterate.
Fr. Serge
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You are very American. In Italy we say that "the exceptions confirm the rule"....
Reading the Vatican document, it is clear that, while it affirms the rule of celibacy (a forced statment), it clearly leaves huge doors to exceptions, that are even expressly foreseen.
There will be lots of married priest in the new ordinariates...
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Reread it, Neil. It's not received members, it's just members of the Ordinariate. §4. The Ordinary may accept as seminarians only those faithful who belong to a personal parish of the Ordinariate or who were previously Anglican and have established full communion with the Catholic Church. aramis, The highlighted text allows for those received post erection of the Ordinariate. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Depends upon how you read the clauses.
§4. The Ordinary may accept as seminarians only those faithful (who belong to a personal parish of the Ordinariate) or (who were previously Anglican and have established full communion with the Catholic Church.)
Parenths and bolding mine.
Belonging to a personal parish of the ordinariate appears to be sufficient.
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I should clarify one thing: unlike other personal prelatures, the membership requirements for the ordinariate are more than simply desiring to be there. I'm not looking up the exact reference right now, but marriage to an Anglican Ordinariate Member Catholic allows one in to the Ordinariate's enrollment. Persons born in also are members.
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Belonging to a personal parish of the ordinariate appears to be sufficient. Oh, I agree that belonging is sufficient - my point was that you either were of the Ordinariate already or were subsequently received into communion. Those conditions seem unlikely to afford an adequate number of presbyteral candidates to sustain the existence of the Usage (or whatever it's being termed) on an ongoing basis (which was already a demonstrated concern with the previous Anglican Usage). Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The previous Anglican Use only permitted new presbyters by conversion, not by ordination of Catholics following the Anglican Use. The Current mode provides for both married and unmarried men to be ordained into the Ordinariate; it widens the pool considerably by so doing, and potentially lowers the average age by a decade+ for new priests. Now, unlike the Eastern Churchs, there is no voluntary transfer for the general body of Catholicism, but the definition in the Complementary Norms includes any who receive the sacraments of initation within the ordinariate. So a Roman could not become a member, but his children could, were they received in an ordinariate. "You can't, but you can weasel your children in..." Also interesting, from the Apostolic constitution itself: § 2. The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula) will admit only celibate men to the order of presbyter. He may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from can. 277, §1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See. those objective criteria are not yet public, if even yet fixed. The same wording was originally extended to Roman Bishops in regards to married men for the Deaconate, specifically for Alaska Native men entering ministry. That was later broadened. The same wording was granted by HH JP II to several eastern Churches in the US, and later broadened by ordering a return to the fullness of tradition.
Last edited by aramis; 11/17/09 10:42 AM.
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If the numbers coming in are great enough, they will have some clout. Otherwise, it won't be much different from what we already saw with the "Pastoral Provision."  Given the conditions of re-ordination and no married bishops (not to mention the other hardships involved), it will take a serious commitment on the part of those seeking to come over.  Let us pray that those who are seeking to do this will follow through and not lose heart!  Peace, Deacon Richard
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As I noted earlier, there are about 2500-3000 members of ACC, and from what I have seen on their blogs, they are very much of a mixed mind on the new constitution. If you get a third of them, I will be very much surprised. How this plays out in the UK, Canada and Australia is another matter, but I don't see a tsunami of Anglican converts--more like a steady trickle.
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I should clarify one thing: unlike other personal prelatures, the membership requirements for the ordinariate are more than simply desiring to be there. I'm not looking up the exact reference right now, but marriage to an Anglican Ordinariate Member Catholic allows one in to the Ordinariate's enrollment. Persons born in also are members. The recently established Personal Ordinariate for converting Anglicans is the only one so far in the Catholic Church. Likewise, the Personal Prelature for the Opus Dei is the only one so far in the Catholic Church. There are no "other Personal Ordinariates" nor are there any "other Personal Prelatures." And the two structures are not the same, i.e., a Prelature is different from an Ordinariate, as we have seen. Amado
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Actually no Anglican Use Personal Ordinariates have been established yet, just the provision made for establishing them. The Apostolic Constitution clearly indicates that there will be multiple Ordinariates, one for each nation/Episcopal Conference, just as each nation has its own Military Ordinariate.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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