www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Lecture on the Filioque by an Orthodox patristic scholar

Italians have a very relaxed view of regularity.


They may be more religious, but it doesn't mean they go to church more often. My Sicilian great-great-grandfather was pretty typical: he loved the Church, he hated priests with a passion (well, they were flaming hypocrites who tended to lord it over the peasants). His idea of regular attendance was Christmas, Good Friday and Easter, plus weddings, funerals and baptisms. One thing not mentioned, but which anyone can observe on a given Sunday, is the majority of people at Mass are women--and generally older women at that.


The people responding to such surveys usually understand it to mean they go on Sundays except when there are unavoidable circumstances such as illness and travel that prevent it.

In Poland people don't have the opportunity to lie about their attendance because they're simply not being asked. The people present at Mass are being counted and that's all.

Poland in 2008: 40.4 % attending (dominicantes), 15.3 % receiving Holy Communion (communicantes). The general trend is downwards.

For the two Greek-Catholic dioceses of the UGCC in Poland the numbers are 47.2%; 15.3% and 47,9%; 18,4% corresponding.

More than 90% of Poland (95% or so - I don't remember) is Catholic, 82% of them was considered obliged to attend (the rest is too young or too old or sick etc.) - this is the base value for the dominicantes and communicantes.

Done every year by the Institute of Statistics of the Catholic Church (whatever it is).

From my experience I can say that churches are still packed, although not like they used to be.

Details in Polish only: http://www.iskk.ecclesia.org.pl/praktyki-niedzielne.htm

Stuart,

Yes, Italians do have a relaxed view of regularity - but "regularity" was my definition, meaning attending Mass once a month or more.

According the survey conducted by Venice, 15% of Italians attend every Sunday and another 8% (adding up to 23%, as I said, basically a quarter) attend at least once a month. So, "regularly," by my definition.

I never get the impression from my family that they hated priests.

I always thought that was more of an Irish thing, but I guess that's because my very-great-grandfather emigrated from Ireland apparently because he killed his priest - with a pitchfork - over some sort of a tax dispute.

Alexis

Yikes! I actually thought that the Irish were quite reverend towards the clergy...

In any case, if you know his name, you should have memorial masses said in his behalf and also pray for his soul too...It doesn't matter how many generations pass...the dimension of the Kingdom of God does not know time as we do, but his soul will thank you for the refreshment.

Very few, Stuart, not no-one... St. Nick's head cantor has kept records for years.

Anti-clericalism was quite common among the Mediterranean peasantry going back to the beginning of the 20th century. The Church was a major landholder, and the peasants were tenant farmers. The priests would squeeze this for all it was worth, but worse, in the eyes of my great-great-grandfather was the manner in which they would routinely dispense themselves from fasting while insisting that the peasants observe it in all its rigor. The opulence of their lifestyle in relation to the crushing poverty he experienced was quite enough to turn him against all priests.

The attitude was also common in Spain, where it was a commonplace that a Spaniard loved the Church but hated priests. This anticlericalism came to the fore in the Civil War, and a similar point of view was also common in Mexico. The Church's overly-close relationship with oppressive elites created a backlash against the clergy--even while, paradoxically, not extending the the Church per se, due to the consolation that the faith gave to them. It did not seem a contradiction to them that one could be both pious and anticlerical at the same time.

Did anyone go to the lecture? Thoughts, comments?

That exists, too.

I used to belong to an organization (The AOH in America) whose origin (in Ireland) was hiding priests from the British Army, which was summarily executing them at the time.

hawk

Just trying to re-direct the thread so that it is about the lecture. Did anyone here go?

Oh, Alice, I'm just now seeing your comment.

The problem is, I don't know his name! My uncle apparently did some high school report on my mom's family's genealogy wherein he discovered this little disturbing tidbit of information, but no one knows where it is. To be honest I'm not even sure which side of my mother's family it was, since so many different ancestors from unrelated families came from Ireland at different times on my mom's side.

Alexis

The lecture was very good and a copy of it can be found here:

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/filioque-introduction/