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Of course, if you really believed that, Father, you would have concurred with me on the matter of non-sacramental re-marriage. I am unaware of any Orthodox Church which sees a second marriage as either adultery or fornication. Nor am I aware of any Orthodox Church which withholds the holy Mystery of Marriage from someone entering a second marriage. You are simply mistaken, as was Pope Benedict in his understanding of Orthodox theology on this matter. On this matter, which is such an important personal and pastoral matter for many people, please refrain from misrepresenting Orthodox teaching.
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The Orthodox Church is not really all that different. There are the various collections of canons, of which some are ignored, others heavily modified, and some applied with more or less rigorous literalism. Then there is the Orthodoxy of the theologians, which places these canons in their proper context, and thus conflicts to some degree with what "official" Orthodoxy does. And finally, there is the Orthodoxy of the people, sometimes described as Baba or Yaya theology--a combination of folk lore, misunderstanding and outright error. And again, all three of these exist side-by-side, because the various circles do not intersect that much. Bishops and priests are concerned with the day-to-day operations of their dioceses and parishes; theologians are concerned with rooting out the true patristic Tradition; and the people are concerned mostly with getting through their daily lives as best they can. Really you have created a caricature of the Church. You divide Orthodox people into three segments.. 1. Tha canons and the bishops 2. The theologians 3. The grannies. You have completely ignored 90% of the Orthodox faithful, those who do not belong to any one of your three arbitrary categories, namely, the vast majority of the faithful of the Church. These are the people who read and study and discuss and make the attempt to understand and practise their faith intelligently. These people, the 4th segment which you have chosen to ignore, form a sizeable part of every parish.
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Where do these ninety percent live, Father? In Greece, where only about 10-15% of the nominally Orthodox people can be found in church on any given Sunday? In Russia, where some 70% of the population claims to be Orthodox, but fewer than 10% are regular attendees? In the United States? Perhaps it is in Wellington that we can find this highly motivated, engaged, and theologically literate Orthodox people? Is New Zealand to be the Fourth Rome?
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Where do these ninety percent live, Father? In Greece, where only about 10-15% of the nominally Orthodox people can be found in church on any given Sunday? In Russia, where some 70% of the population claims to be Orthodox, but fewer than 10% are regular attendees? In the United States? Perhaps it is in Wellington that we can find this highly motivated, engaged, and theologically literate Orthodox people? Is New Zealand to be the Fourth Rome? It has been noticed that these last couple of days you have been a little on edge.  Anyway, have you looked at Catholic attendance statistics lately? Italy - 15% of Catholics France - 5% of Catholics. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543643/Italian-church-attendance-lower-than-thought.html
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I didn't say they were any better. In fact, I said the Catholic Church was divided pretty much the way I described for the Orthodox Church.
Saying that you are just as bad as we are isn't precisely a ringing endorsement of Orthodox catechesis, Father. Gregory of Nyssa doesn't have to worry about having his haircut interrupted by a barber discoursing on the consubstantiality of the Logos.
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I didn't say they were any better. In fact, I said the Catholic Church was divided pretty much the way I described for the Orthodox Church.
Saying that you are just as bad as we are isn't precisely a ringing endorsement of Orthodox catechesis, Father. I think that there is a signifciant difference in that, for example, in Russia the 10-12% of regular Sunday worshippers is a figure which is still on the increase after the removal of Soviet repression of the last 80 years. It is, in other words, a statistic about which we may allow ourselves some optimism. It is slowly increasing.
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Very slowly, indeed--if it is not decreasing after an initial burst of enthusiasm. But, by the same token, it would appear that Christianity generally is on the rise again in France, of all places. Perhaps it takes a visceral challenge to the faith to make it burn again in the hearts of the people?
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Very slowly, indeed--if it is not decreasing after an initial burst of enthusiasm. If I remember correctly it was pegged at 7% a few years back, and the latest statistics are 10-12%.
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All such figures, of course, are scientific wild ass guesses. People are asked if they go to church, and how often. They then adjust their halos and lie through their teeth--because everybody lies about sex, religion, money and politics. This observation has been confirmed over and over when the results of statistical surveys are compared with actual attendance records.
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I'm pleased to know Peter Gilbert, and can recommend the lecture. You will leave smarter.
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Just for the sake of accuracy, not because it really matters, the study that Fr. Ambrose cited about attendance in Italy shows that nearly a quarter of Italians attend church regularly. The 15% figure represents those that attend every Sunday.*
Plus, it says that this study was done by the Patriarchate of Venice, assumedly within the boundaries of the Archdiocese of Venice, which I would imagine has a significantly lower church attendance rate than Southern Italian regions (viva Sicilia!), which are traditionally more religious.
France, on the other hand, is effectively non-Christian, nevermind non-Catholic. But, as Stuart notes, I see hope on the horizon for that country...way, way off in the horizon.
I'd be interested to see the statistics for Croatia, Poland, and Malta - which as far as I understand, are the most traditionally Catholic countries in Europe in terms of sheer numbers of people actually practicing their faith and attending Mass regularly.
As I believe I mentioned, when I was in Croatia this summer, every time I went into a church for Mass, people were packed in like sardines!
Alexis
*What does "attend every Sunday" really mean? If you've missed once in your life, does that mean you don't attend church every Sunday? I regret to say that I have missed Mass before, since becoming Catholic 5 and a half years ago, for no good reason. That has only happened a handful of times - but does that mean I don't attend church every Sunday?
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 11/28/09 11:02 PM.
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All such figures, of course, are scientific wild ass guesses. released 18. December 2008 Moscow: Churches and chapels - 872 (up from 851 one year ago.) Moscow: Clergy - 1813 (up from 1779 one year ago.) Stats for the entire Russian Church...Dioceses - 157 (up from 142 one year ago.) Bishops - 203 includes 149 ruling bishops and 48 vicar bishops. Total number of clergy in the Russian Church - 30, 670 Parishes - 29,268 (up from 27 942.)The Church continues to open 3 new churches each day. Monasteries - 804 Stauropegial monasteries (under direct subordination to the patriarch) - 65 Theological schools - 87 Sunday schools - 11,051 (up from 10,141 one year ago.) Source: Interfax religion http://www.spc.rs/eng/news_statistics_russian_orthodox_church_releasedThanks to the anonymous sender for these statistics.
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Praise God for the ongoing revival of the Russian Orthodox Church!
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Very impressive development of the institutional Church, but I notice no objective measures of how many people are at Liturgy each Sunday. This is a figure that eludes everybody, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, because nobody keeps reliable records, and when you ask people personally, they lie.
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