www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The word "Rusyn" and what it really means

Many people in the US have been fed false information regarding the word "Rusyn." Very few here do not know what it actually means, and who it pertains to. "Rysyny" were ALL the inhabitants of the Empire of Kyiv Rus', that means that even then, the people living in parts of Belarus were and still are Rusyny. Not only are all the inhabitants of UKRAINE, Rusyny, but also those who are considered "Carpatho-Rusyny (those seeking recognition of being a seperate ethnicity) Now, I have a lot of family in Ukraine, they live in Zakarpats'ka Oblast, L'vivs'ka Oblast and Ivano-Frankivs'ka Oblast. I asked them all on many different occasions about this "seperate Rusyn identity" (as the Carpatho-Rusyn Society and its members HERE in the US are trying to build) and the answer was the same from them as it was from the Greek Catholic and Orthodox Clergy alike (even those of the Mukachevo eparchy) All of Ukraine is Rus', we are all Rusyny, and there is not a seperation between us because of dialectical differences... even the Zaporizhzhian kozaky were Rusyny! Furthermore, those of my family living in those 3 oblasti, consider themselves Hutsuly and Bojky (even those living in Velykyj Bereznyj call themselves Hutsuly as do all of the people living there), and do not refer to themselves as "karpato-rusyny" or "rus'kyj" Furthermore, most people in zakarpattja, prykarpattja and bojkivszczyna answer the same and call themselves Bojky or Hutsuly. Nobody there sings the rather poorly written "Rusyn national anthem" by Duchnovich, and regardless of past borders, they were all (Bojkivszczyna, Zakarpattja, Hutsul'szczyna) under Austria-Hungary at one point in time, and at one point in time at the same time, making them still closer even yet with a one common history. If you go up to someone on the street and asked them their nationality, they'd answer Ukrainian. No this isnt the product of porpaganda or brainwashing, it is fact of where they live and who they are. Ukraine was the unification of all people living there, of all dialects and all similar yet slightly varying local customs (Bojky, Hutsuly, Verkhovyntsi, Uhorszczany etc) Yes, their dialects differ [u]slightly[/u], but are almost always 100% mutually intelligible, AND all of thes people live within the carpathian mountains, so what my point is, that those people in the C-RS are misusing the term Rusyn because it applies to a lot more people than simply Lemky and those living in Zakarpats'ka oblast. The funny thing is, most of them have never even visited those countries and are basing their conclusions on terminology that is much out of use. If they ever actually did visit those countries, they would have a change in vocabulary.

P.S. - The usage of liturgical chant is not a way to distinguish them into categories. The C-RS considers Lemky to be Rusyny, but they do not consider Bojky and Hutsuly to be Rusyny, and much of this comparision is based on liturgical practuice and chant. Well the Lemky use HALYT'S'KYJ NAPIV mainly with some areas using Uhors'kyj napiv. ALSO! Many villages in Halyczyny sing uhors'kyj napiv also. SO it is a mixed bag. And I personally feel that the C-RS is completely and absolutely wrong in almost all of their claims, as do my family and friends in Ukraine.

Here is a link to an article which I completely agree with. I also forwarded it to my family int he Carpathian region of Western Ukraine and they also wholeheartedly agree. This article is also in agreement with history of the Ukrainian people.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages\R\U\Ruthenians.htm

Dubee85:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

Welcome to the forum. That said, I'd have to say that you've introduced a hot-button issue that has raised more than its share of responses in the past. Let's keep this issue in charitable terms.

BOB
Moderator

Dear Bob,

Just simply putting forth my experiences with the people of these areas of the world. It is awful strange that the people here in this country who push the Rusyn card have basically no contact with the Carpathian area today. Their only experiences of anything slavic are the stories of their great-grandparents. My point is that just because this is a hot button issue, people still need to hear the other side of things, what the people who LIVE THERE say themselves about it. This whole "rusyn" movement seems to be bigger in Slovakia anyway, the Ukrainians really don't even care about it (except for Fr. Dimitry Sidor and his circle of friends)

For me it is pretty obvious that there are many Rus's (?), like Kievian Rus, Moscovian Rus (Russia), White Rus (Belarus), Red Rus, Rus of Halicz (Galicja) etc. The term "Rus" is more or less equivalent to "realm of East Slavs", "Rusyn" to "East Slav". Sometimes the distinction is merely geographical, sometimes ethnical or linguistic. But why is it so important (I'm unfamiliar with the situation, I don't want to be provocative) ?

Very true. Making their claim to the word Rusyny invalid, because they are all Rusyny. Furthermore, the Ukrainian government refuses to recognize the Rusyny of Zakarpattya as a separate ethnicity because of this, that the Ukrainian people themselves are Rusyny and there is nothing ethnically different about them whatsoever. All of the Ukrainians have different dialects from oblast to oblast, but NOBODY else is trying to get separate recognition for it. For example, the people of Donetsk speak a Surzhyk dialect while the people of Cherkasy speak a central dialect as the Hutsuly, Bojky and people of Zakarpattja also speak slightly differently!

Dubee85:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

I've got it. Please understand that I have no dog in this fight, but I've witnessed some really "frank" exchanges on this subject among those who post here.

Just wanted to give you a heads up.

BOB

I still am not sure if I understand. You're talking about the Lemko vs Ukrainian identity controversy, that the Lemko et consortes want to be recognized as a separate carpatho-russian ethnicity called "Rusyny", right? If so, it is a political matter. Such recognition can raise issues in Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary... nobody wants it in these countries.

What I want to know is why the C-RS only limits their "Rusyn coverage category" to the Lemky, those in eastern Slovakia and Zakarpattja, why do they leave out the Bojky and Hutsuly who also live in Zakarpattja??? Why do they not consider those living in the ACTUAL mountain range "Verkhovyntsi" to be Rusyny?? Is it because they subscribe themselves (Hutsuly, Bojky, Verkhovyntsi, Bukovyntsi)subscribe themselves to the Ukrainian national identity? But how does that make them non-Rusyns then? They are Ukrainians yes, they are also their own ethnic local culture as well and are not seeking separate ethnic recognition from the government. As I said before, those in Poltava speak different from those in Chernivtsi as those in Ivano-Frankivs'k. But does a local dialect and local folk customs call from grounds of claiming separate ethnicity??? That is ridiculous because they are SO similar there is almost NO difference between them. That is different when speaking about Russians and Belarusians and Ukrainians and Slovaks and Polish because yes there are differences that make even communication difficult between them all, but these little sub-groups (mentioned above) living in Ukraine are not even of a different ethnic makeup. this whole issue that the C-RS is pushing is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion and in the opinions of many living in the Carpathian region. Sorry to push anyones buttons with this but I feel it needs to be said.

Peter, yes it is not only the fact that it is political, but it is not even a real issue in Ukraine because most people don't even care about it, not do they feel they are a separate ethnicity from Ukrainians. In Poland, I am not so sure, BUT from those that I've met from Lemkivszczyna, they were happy to call themselves Ukrainians and not identify as Polish or Russians (nor as Karpato-Rusyny) The biggest movement appears to be in Slovakia. Of course because the "Rusyn" faction has more in common with Ukrainians both in sharing the same language (with local variations) and customs, and having been separated from the rest of Kyiv Rus at a time when all refered to themselves as Rusyny, they kept the terminology of Rusyn. SO by using this term they are subscribing themselves to Kyivan Rus' and not to a minute pocket of micro-dialects.

One of the things I appreciate most about the Melkite Church is the absence of the "nationalities" issue. To those of us who do not have a dog in this fight, the whole thing looks, well, petty and silly. As a nice lady who married into a mixed Rusyn and Ukranian family once told us, "They're all crazy as loons".

COMPLETELY AGREED MY FRIEND!!!! And my point exactly... that being said, these clubs such as the C-RS really are nothing more than what you said, petty and foolish. Agreed 100%

We used to have 2 Melkite Congregations at one time, as the Palestinians were not happy to worship with Lebanese. They must have sorted something out, as there is now only the one congregation. Yes they do seem to managed the nationalism issue very well.

The UGCC is not as bad here as it used to be for pushing the nationalist boat out. We still have a small congregation in the church, followed by events to do with Ukraine that often have many more people attending that were in the church next door a little while before.

Dubee,

As Bob has pointed out, this is an issue that has resulted in some very heated discussions here in the past, which doesn't preclude it being raised in a thread.

However, much of what you've posted seems to be directed at disparaging the goals, mission, perhaps the existence of the Carpatho-Rusyn Society (C-RS). It seems to me that your energies might be better directed at raising your disagreement with the Society directly. Be forewarned, employing this forum as a soapbox from which to bash the Society is not going to be an acceptable course of action.

I'd also note that the Society's description of Carpatho-Rusyns appears to be significantly more inclusive than Lemkos alone - the sole body whom you credit it as concerned about. (In fact, the CR-S seems to consistently apply 'Lemko' to Rusyns who lived in the Kingdom of Poland.) From the Society's website:


Who Are the Rusyns? [carpathorusynsociety.org]

Language, Identity, and Culture [carpathorusynsociety.org]

Many years,

Neil

Now, now. Even the Melkites (who are among my favorite people) are quite capable of "going native" every now and then.

Fr. Serge