www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The word "Rusyn" and what it really means

People will start to care when they begin to demand something. That's what political issues are for If I were some Russian or EU spin doctor I would love to have some nationality issue that I may use to incite a conflict or even a small-scale tension in Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Romania, Hungary...


Apart from the pro-Ukrainian Lemko Union in Poland there is Lemko Society, member of the World Rusyn Council (or so), just like the Carpatho-Rusyn Society. They publish a bimonthly magazine "Besida". They don't call themselves Ukrainians. They publish in "Lemko language" about "Lemko culture" in "Rusyn context", since 1989.

Language is also a political matter nowadays. Until recently nobody recognized yiddish a language, it was a German dialect.

As to the "nationality" question - I have noticed that in the West the term "nationality" often means state allegiance. In the East we are, thank God, not that politically correct (at least for the time being), so "nationality" mostly means "ethnical allegiance". For state allegiance the term "citizenship" is used, so often you can find on official forms separate places for "nationality" and "citizenship".

There even was a "nationality vs state allegiance joke" - typical surname of a Czech - Hašek. Typical surname of a Slovak - Jablonský. Typical surname of a Czechoslovak - Zimmermann.

Why all the hate? Why do other Slavs fear indigenous East Slavic people correctly identifying themselves as "Rusyn" or "Carpatho-Rusyn"? Why do other Slavs fear "Rusyns" being "Rusyn"? Is this just another case of majority rule and ethnic minorities should "asssimilate or they will be persecuted"? Again, why all the hate?

Ung-Csertezs, (proud third generation Carpatho-Rusyn American)

I'm not attempting to bash the C-RS by use of this site, I am presenting my point to the people here who most likely are in agreement with them. Ha, and to be honest I've met quite a few "Rusyny" in eastern SLovakia in the Kosice and Michalovce area who call themselves Ukrajintsi ;))

Yiddish is a LOT further apart linguistically from German than "Lemko-Rusyn" is from western Halyts'kyj Ukrainian and the same goes for the other dialects. It would be almost the same as saying people from New Hampshire speak a different language from the people in Massachusettes... that is completely ridiculous. Knowing the language and actually being able to communicate and notice the similarities is 90% the battle here. Most people here make the Rusyn claim, but dont even remotely speak it. Therefore how can they know how "unrealted" it is to Ukrainian? What I'm saying here is the Bojky, the Hutsuly, the Uhorszczany and the Lemky are ALL related VERY closely, to the point where the differences are negligible and there is no reason to have a club or society claiming difference in ethnicity. People need to go there and actually see it for themselves. The region of Stryj, Uzhok, Drohobycz, they're all Lemky and Bojky living there! Why doesnt the C-RS say that? Their maps are completely wrong in the respect of saying Rusyns only live on the south side of the Carpathians.

Yes, but look at the way that was said... "other peopel came in calling themselves Rus'." That is insinuating that they are invalidly making claims to Rus', and that is completely not true. Basically what I am saying, is WHY does not a single person who subscribes to this "Rusyn identity" and automatically classifies EVERYONE from that part of the world Rusyn and NOT Ukrainian (yes they are just as forceful with naming others Rusyns just as the Russians are to call Ukraine their own) why do they NOT EVER want to talk about the Hutsuly or Bojky? My answer IS that the Hutsuly and Bojky are Rusyny as well BUT they are not afraid to call themselves Ukrainians, and they are Rusyny who went with the Ukrainian national movement so the people of the Rusyn mindset (those in the C-RS refuse to recognize it and avoid talking about them, thereby making their claim NOT so black and white as they say it is)

Christ is born! Glorify him!

Dubee, please note the mission of byzcath.org:


Forgive me, but I fail to see how your geopolitical instruction contributes to the mission of this website. Members do engage in political conversations here, but I personally don't understand your registering for byzcath with apparently one purpose.

Does your lecture contribute to our understanding of Byzantine Catholics in America? Are you providing "news of the Christian East"? Are you presenting church teachings?

I have only a small standing in this community, but IMHO, people who have not contributed to the life/mission of the forum should not be making posts to propagate their own particular point of view on a subject that is tangential (at best) to the mission of this website.

I guess it's because of the contemporary belief that nations have some kind of right to self-determination. Strong C-R identity can contribute to further weakening of Ukraine, which is already divided. Not to mention other countries involved, like Poland, Romania, Hungary, or even Serbian Vojvodina.

Polish Wikipedia claims that there were only 30 Lemko volunteers (out of total 8000) to Sich Riflemen. But the article is pro-C-R.

I believe one could safely say, that most of the world neither knows nor cares much about that entire area. Unless you are from the area of Ukraine, have relatives there, or have descended from anyone from there in recent memory, that area won't even cross your mind. It's sad that for some, the eternal bickering still exists. It badly needs to die out.

Not saying that at all bro. Simply stating that those who most people consider Rusyn here are not the only ones who actually are, thereby this dissolves the claim of the C-RS that they are ethnically distinct from everyone else :)))

Sure, but if I were praising the "rusyn" identity and not discussign my experiences of it, I'm sure it would be no ptoblem. Just because I am presenting a point, and presenting it straightforward but peacefully, because it does not agree with the typical norm of what those here believe or are told about "Rusyns", everyone is getting angry. I'll end on this though, go there and you'll see for yourselves how it actually is.... how much different it actually is from what all the books and "societies" would like you to believe.

Pan Dubee provides the antithesis to the rusyn argument. nothing wrong with healthy debate and my family is from the area people would term rusyn but they always said theey were ukrainian.

Dubee,

First, there are no Rusyns, then those who claim to be Rusyn are not the only ones who are??? Finishing it up with a shot at the C-RS suggests, again, that it is the target of these postings.

As my brother and friend, Matt, notes above, his people are from a region that many would identify as Rusyn, but they self-identify as Ukrainian. Point - people are, in the absence of fraudulent intent, entitled to claim themselves as who and what they choose - a point often made here.

There are any number of threads buried in the forum archives in which we have entertained theories that "All X are Y, therefore all Y are X" - substitute whatever ethnic identifiers one chooses for X and Y. None are particularly edifying, most do nothing more than induce rancor as persons defend themselves from being labeled what they choose not to be or insist on their right to style themselves as they choose.

My sister, Alicia, has framed the question well, asking how this thread contributes to the mission of the forum? Now, unquestionably, not all do. We sponsor both serious and lighthearted threads that, by posting in Town Hall, are exempted, as it were, from that requirement. TH is a catch-all venue where greater latitude prevails than in the religious fora.

However, this thread has no redeeming qualities that merit its continuation. I'm neither Rusyn nor Ukrainian and not a member of the C-RS, nor does the C-RS have any particular standing here. Years of internet participation though have led me to clearly understand that allowing use of a forum site to bash an organization, the existence of which is unconnected to the forum and which is neither morally nor legally harmful, is an exercise that serves no useful purpose - other than to gratify the one who is pushing that agenda.

Your comments to the contrary, that you are not pushing an agenda, you keep returning to the illegitimacy of the C-RS's existence as a vehicle for those who proudly proclaim themselves Rusyn.

I'd have to disagree (and I don't often do so) with Matt's characterization of the thread as representing healthy debate. It's a monologous filibuster with neither end nor conclusion in sight.

Whenever you choose to post on a topic that offers opportunity for the types of discussion - constructive, instructive, educational, spiritual, or otherwise meaningful and contributory, that are the meat of this site, feel free to do so. This thread is none of those and you ignored my earlier warning on the matter.

The thread is closed with thanks to those who restrained themselves from going at it tooth and nail.

Many years,

Neil