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I thought I would take the role of mediator and move some off topic stuff from the Vicar of Christ thread.

The last few posts there read my mind; the Orthodox church likes to speak about how "it doesn't limit itself to seven sacraments".

My reading of this is that it is a classic apophatic position; who are we to say we know how God is revealed in human life? A sacrament or mystery is an experience of God in daily life.

Saying there are only seven sacraments, or that some things are sacraments and some are not appears to Orthodox (at least as far as I know - note I am not claiming an official position, if there were ever such a thing) to be limiting or denying the power or ability of God to be present as He pleases in human experience.

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Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
I thought I would take the role of mediator and move some off topic stuff from the Vicar of Christ thread.

The last few posts there read my mind; the Orthodox church likes to speak about how "it doesn't limit itself to seven sacraments".

My reading of this is that it is a classic apophatic position; who are we to say we know how God is revealed in human life? A sacrament or mystery is an experience of God in daily life.

Saying there are only seven sacraments, or that some things are sacraments and some are not appears to Orthodox (at least as far as I know - note I am not claiming an official position, if there were ever such a thing) to be limiting or denying the power or ability of God to be present as He pleases in human experience.

I'm not going to reinvent the wheel, but again, to those of us under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this article by Father Thomas Fitzgerald, Dean of Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology is instructive: (http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7105)

THE SACRAMENTS

Rev. Thomas Fitzgerald

One of the best-known prayers of the Orthodox Church speaks of the spirit of God being "present in all places and filling all things." This profound affirmation is basic to Orthodoxy's understanding of God and His relationship to the world. We believe that God is truly near to us. Although He cannot be seen, God is not detached from His creation. Through the persons of The Risen Christ and the Holy Spirit, God is present and active in our lives and in the creation about us. All our life and the creation of which we are an important part, points, to and reveals God.

There are special experiences in our corporate life as Orthodox Christians when the perception of God's presence and actions is heightened and celebrated. We call these events of the Church Sacraments. Traditionally, the Sacraments have been known as Mysteries in the Orthodox Church. This description emphasizes that in these special events of the Church, God discloses Himself through the prayers and actions of His people.

Not only do the Sacraments disclose and reveal God to us, but also they serve to make us receptive to God. All the Sacraments affect our personal relationship to God and to one another. The Holy Spirit works through the Sacraments. He leads us to Christ who unites us with the Father. By participating in the Sacraments, we grow closer to God and to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This process of deification, or theosis, as it is known by Orthodoxy, takes place not in isolation from others, but within the context of a believing community. Although the Sacraments are addressed to each of us by name, they are experiences which involve the entire Church.

The Sacraments of the Orthodox Church are composed of prayers, hymns, scripture lessons, gestures and processions. Many parts of the services date back to the time of the Apostles. The Orthodox Church has avoided reducing the Sacraments to a particular formula or action. Often, a whole series of sacred acts make up a Sacrament. Most of the Sacraments use a portion of the material of creation as an outward and visible sign of God's revelation. Water, oil, bread and wine are but a few of the many elements which the Orthodox Church employs in her Worship. The frequent use of the material of creation reminds us that matter is good and can become a medium of the Spirit. Most importantly, it affirms the central truth of the Orthodox Christian faith: that God became flesh in Jesus Christ and entered into the midst of creation thereby redirecting the cosmos toward its vocation to glorify its Creator.

THE EUCHARIST

The Holy Eucharist, which is known as the Divine Liturgy, is the central and most important worship experience of the Orthodox Church. Often referred to as the "Sacrament of Sacraments", it is the Church's celebration of the Death and Resurrection of Christ offered every Sunday and Holy day. All the other Sacraments of the Church lead toward and flow from the Eucharist, which is at the center of the life of the Church. The previous pamphlet in this series was devoted to the meaning and celebration of the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church.

BAPTISM

The Sacrament of Baptism incorporates us into the Church, the Body of Christ, and is our introduction to the life of the Holy Trinity. Water is a natural symbol of cleansing and newness of life. Through the three-fold immersion in the waters of Baptism in the Name of the Holy Trinity, one dies to the old ways of sin and is born to a new life in Christ. Baptism is one's public identification with Christ Death and victorious Resurrection. Following the custom of the early Church, Orthodoxy encourages the baptism of infants. The Church believes that the Sacrament is bearing witness to the action of God who chooses a child to be an important member of His people. From the day of their baptism, children are expected to mature in the life of the Spirit, through their family and the Church. The Baptism of adults is practiced when there was no previous baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity.

CHRISMATION

The Sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation) immediately follows baptism and is never delayed until a later age. As the ministry of Christ was enlivened by the Spirit, and the preaching of the Apostles strengthened by the Spirit, so is the life of each Orthodox Christian sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Chrismation, which is often referred to as one's personal Pentecost, is the Sacrament which imparts the Spirit in a special way.

In the Sacrament of Chrismation, the priest anoints the various parts of the body of the newly-baptized with Holy Oil saying: "The seal of the gifts of the Holy Spirit." The Holy Oil, which is blessed by the bishop, is a sign of consecration and strength. The Sacrament emphasizes the truths that not only is each person a valuable member of the Church, but also each one is blessed by the Spirit with certain gifts and talents. The anointing also reminds us that our bodies are valuable and are involved in the process of salvation.

The Sacraments of initiation always are concluded with the distribution of Holy Communion to the newly-baptized. Ideally, this takes place within the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. This practice reveals that Orthodoxy views children from their infancy as important members of the Church. There is never time when the young are not part of God's people.

CONFESSION

As members of the Church, we have responsibilities to one another and, of course, to God. When we sin, or relationship to God and to others distorted. Sin is ultimately alienation from God, from our fellow human beings, and from our own true self which is created in God's image and likeness.

Confession is the Sacrament through which our sins are forgiven, and our relationship to God and to others is restored and strengthened. Through the Sacrament, Christ our Lord continues to heal those broken in spirit and restore the Father's love those who are lost. According to Orthodox teaching, the penitent confess to God and is forgiven by God. The priest is the sacramental witness who represents both Christ and His people. The priest is viewed not as a judge, but as a physician and guide. It is an ancient Orthodox practice for every Christian to have a spiritual father to whom one turns for spiritual advice and counsel. Confession can take place on any number of occasions. The frequency is left the discretion of the individual. In the event of serious sin, however, confession is a necessary preparation for Holy Communion.

MARRIAGE

God is active in our lives. It is He who joins a man and a woman in a relationship of mutual love. The Sacrament of Marriage bears witness to His action. Through this Sacrament, a man and a woman are publicly joined as husband and wife. They enter into a new relationship with each other, God, and the Church. Since Marriage is not viewed as a legal contract, there are no vows in the Sacrament. According to Orthodox teachings, Marriage is not simply a social institution, it is an eternal vocation of the kingdom. A husband and a wife are called by the holy Spirit not only to live together but also to share their Christian life together so that each, with the aid of the other, may grow closer to God and become the persons they are meant to be. In the Orthodox Marriage Service, after the couple have been betrothed and exchanged rings, they are crowned with "crowns of glory and honor" signifying the establishment of a new family under God. Near the conclusion of the Service, the husband and wife drink from a common cup which is reminiscent of the wedding of Cana and which symbolized the sharing of the burdens and joys of their new life together.

HOLY ORDERS

The Holy Spirit preserved the continuity of the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Through ordination, men who have been chosen from within the Church are set apart by the Church for special service to the Church. Each is called by God through His people to stand amid the community, as pastor and teacher, and as the representative of the parish before the Altar. Each is also a living icon of Christ among His people. According to Orthodox teaching, the process of ordination begins with the local congregation; but the bishop alone, who acts in the name of the universal Church, can complete the action. He does so with the invocation of the Holy Spirit and the imposition of his hands on the person being ordained.

Following the custom of the Apostolic Church, there are three major orders each of which requires a special ordination. These are Bishop, who is viewed as a successor of the Apostles, Priest and Deacon, who act in the name of the Bishop. Each order is distinguished by its pastoral responsibilities. Only a Bishop may ordain. Often, other titles and offices are associated with the three orders. The Orthodox Church permits men to marry before they are ordained. Since the sixth century, Bishops have been chosen from the celibate clergy.

ANOINTING OF THE SICK (HOLY UNCTION)

When one is ill and in pain, this can very often be a time of life when one feels alone and isolated. The Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, or Holy Unction as it is also known, remind us that when we are in pain, either physical, emotional, or spiritual, Christ is present with us through the ministry of his Church. He is among us to offer strength to meet the challenges of life, and even the approach of death.

As with Chrismation, oil is also used in this Sacrament as a sign of God's presence, strength, and forgiveness. After the reading of seven epistle lessons, seven gospel lessons and the offering of seven prayers, which are all devoted to healing, the priest anoints the body with the Holy Oil. Orthodoxy does not view this Sacrament as available only to those who are near death. It is offered to all who are sick in body, mind, or spirit. The Church celebrates the Sacrament for all its members during Holy week on Holy Wednesday.

OTHER SACRAMENTS AND BLESSINGS

The Orthodox Church has never formally determined a particular number of Sacraments. In addition to the Eucharist she accepts the above six Mysteries as major Sacraments because they involve the entire community and most important are closely relation to the Eucharist. There are many other Blessings and Special Services which complete the major Sacraments, and which reflect the Church's presence throughout the lives of her people.

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“Realistically, divorces DO happen and both Orthodoxy and RCism have to deal with the reality of divorce. Neither takes a position that a person who has divorced and remarried is to be permanently barred from participation. (Would not such a position be tantamount to declaring remarriage an unforgivable and unpardonable sin?) But the manner in which they deal with the reality is very, very different… RCism views canons as 'laws' (the usual term is 'canon law'). As such, it views those laws as immutable and applicable to all. Orthodoxy, however, views canons as 'rules' or guidelines. As such, the guidelines are not immutable. Orthodoxy's primary concern is with the salvation of each person. (This is the rationale behind _economia_.).. When a person seeks to marry after a divorce, RCism believes it cannot condone 'law breaking' and thus cannot permit the act. To get around this 'law', RCism seeks to find a reason the previous marriage was never 'valid' (another legalistic concept) and can therefore be declared 'annulled' (still another legal concept). To do so, RCism engages in legalistic legerdemain… Orthodoxy recognises that people sin. Divorce is a sin. It faces it head-on, rather than pretending it doesn't exist. Permission may be procured for a second marriage, but not until after the bishop is satisfied that the person seeking to marry again was the innocent party in the divorce. (There are two explicit Scriptural grounds for divorce - adultery, and abandonment. There are also related grounds - for example, severe spousal abuse is also a ground - because it is abandonment in a particularly cruel form.... i.e. the spouse does not have the courtesy to run off, but rather beats his wife until she does.).. A recently divorced Orthodox Christian is never given permission to re-marry immediately (whereas a Roman Catholic can marry immediately after receiving an annulment). Each case is determined on a case-by-case basis (there is no set formula, the canons are used as guidelines, not laws)…. When an Orthodox Christian who has previously married is allowed to marry again, the marriage service is radically different than the service for first marriages. There are no crowns, no songs of joy, no being led around the altar. Instead, it is a distinctly penitential service. The Epistle is 1 Cor 7:8ff ('better to marry than to burn'). The service makes very clear that it is a condescension to man's weakness, to sin. The penitential service is also used when widows & widowers marry. The above cited epistle reading makes the reason for this clear” ( source: Развод в Православной Церкви Moscow 1992 )

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When an Orthodox Christian who has previously married is allowed to marry again, the marriage service is radically different than the service for first marriages. There are no crowns, no songs of joy, no being led around the altar. Instead, it is a distinctly penitential service. The Epistle is 1 Cor 7:8ff ('better to marry than to burn'). The service makes very clear that it is a condescension to man's weakness, to sin. The penitential service is also used when widows & widowers marry. The above cited epistle reading makes the reason for this clear” ( source: Развод в Православной Церкви Moscow 1992 )

Don't tell Father Ambrose.

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It is penitential, not non-sacramental.

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It is both penitential and non-sacramental--unless you are telling us that the Orthodox Church "invented" a sacrament in the 9th century. Why didn't they tell us?

The real point here is the way in which the Orthodox Church can lose sight of its proper sacramental theology by abusing the essential practice of oikonomia.

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Your point of view might be valid from the perspective of the First Church of Apllied Stuartism, but it has no basis in the Church of Christ. Is tonsuring into the Schema sacramental? If it is, according to your logic, the 2nd tonsuring into the Great Schema would not be.

Stuart, your tone with the Orthodox Church is getting wearisome. I don't want to start a flame war, but enough is enough. We are tired of you telling us what we believe. What Orthodox Theological Institution has accredited you? What are your academic credentials for attempting to become the arbitrator of what is orthodox and what is not? When you are done trying to blow smoke up our collective "dzhopie", come back and attempt to have a real discussion. Until then, S'Bogom, and try to find peace within yourself.

Alexandr

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Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]When an Orthodox Christian who has previously married is allowed to marry again, the marriage service is radically different than the service for first marriages. There are no crowns, no songs of joy, no being led around the altar. Instead, it is a distinctly penitential service. .....Don't tell Father Ambrose.

This is such a load of old cobblers. We use what is called the "Hapgood Service Book" which is a translation from Russian of the Russian Service book prior to the Revolution and blessed by Patriarch Saint Tikhon.

The Rite for a Second Crowning contains the Service of Crowning and the essential blessing immediately following.

The Rite for a Second Crowning contains the triple dance/procession around the table - the Dance of Isaiah.

The Rite for a Second Crowning has only a small element of penitential prayer at the commencement of the Service of Betrothal.

Please look for yourself in the Service Book.

http://www.archive.org/details/ServiceBookOfHolyOrthodoxChurchByHapgood

The Rite of a Second Crowning commences on Page 302.

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Is the Rite of Second Crowning used by the Orthodox in communion with Rome? Under what circumstances? If it is used, surely it would be very simple for a forum member to look in the Byzantine Catholic Service Books and confirm what I am saying.

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
As such, it views those laws as immutable and applicable to all. Orthodoxy, however, views canons as 'rules' or guidelines. As such, the guidelines are not immutable. Orthodoxy's primary concern is with the salvation of each person.

A recently divorced Orthodox Christian is never given permission to re-marry immediately (whereas a Roman Catholic can marry immediately after receiving an annulment).

Alexandr

I do think I understand the distinction you are making between the Latin canons being "immutable" and the Orthodox canons as "guidelines", for want of better terms in both cases, and that is an important distinction and one I value as an EC. That said I would say that properly understood the Catholic canons are equally primarily concerned with the salvation of each person. (I've only had a five day intensive class in canon law and that was limited to certain canons but did include those related the Sacraments including marriage.) The processes for seeking a decree of nullity is there for economia as well.

A petition for the decree of nullity cannot be opened before a civil divorce is granted by the state. In CA that takes 6 months without any complications. So after that one can petition for a decree of nullity. The time that process takes varies considerably depending on many things including the availability of witnesses and the speed with which they respond. I've seen 16 months quoted as a norm for the decision. So IF after that norm of 16 months the decree of nullity is granted, no guarantee of that of course, that would mean if all went without a hitch, in some dream land, then the the couple would then be free to go through the pre marriage counseling which is required in the Latin Church. In the US that is a minimum of 6 months from the time one asks to be married in the Church to the date of the wedding. That premarital counseling may or may not lead to a priest saying they can be married in the Catholic Church.

Perhaps I am wrong but what you wrote made it sound to me like there is a fast track to remarriage. Perhaps this sounds like a fast track. Indeed I did describe the fastest track as typically divorces take longer. While the process is indeed different with the Orthodox I have been under the impression from Orthodox I've talked with that the whole "remarriage" timeline can be very similar Orthodox or Catholic depending on the individuals involved. I can say I've heard many people say that the process of seeking a decree of nullity while they had dreaded it turned out to be a powerfully healing experience. I have no experience with the process for various EC Churches. Likewise I've no experience outside the US. Perhaps there are other countries where civil divorces proceed quicker and the Catholic Bishops there require less time for premarital counseling. Id be surprised if the decree of nullity process goes any quicker as the steps do take time. And surely in some countries both take longer.

In Christ-
Mary

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Oops, I see we have two threads going for this topic and this message which I posted in the other thread is also very relevant to this thread...
____________________________________


Dear Stuart,

Another Service Book online, a little earlier translation than Hapgood's, this time in 1894, which contains the Order of a Second Marriage. Click on Chapter XII.

http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-book-of-needs-online.html

You will see that, contrary to the information provided in your quote above, it contains the Crowning, the essential blessing which immediately follows the Crowning, as well as the Dance of Isaiah around the table. It is, in other words, the Holy Mystery of Marriage.

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Yes. I know. However, as I wrote earlier, the introduction of Crowning, particularly by the Russians, occurred much later, in response to the demand for such crownings on the part of the people. Crownings, however, were deliberately NOT part of the original Rite of Remarriage, for the very good reason that there can be only ONE sacramental marriage in a lifetime (otherwise, what is the meaning of the statement

"Marriage is not simply a social institution, it is an eternal vocation of the kingdom."?

Your approach, Father, repudiates the Orthodox doctrine of the indissoluability of Christian marriage and mocks the Fathers, who simply refused to countenance remarriages in church, but were willing to reconcile those who remarried (by civil ceremony) with the Church through repentence, prayer and fasting.

Only when the Church was forced to take over responsibility for the legal aspects of marriage--including divorce and remarriage--did it even bother to develop a Rite of Remarriage.

You have yet to address that inconvenient fact and conundrum.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Yes. I know. However, as I wrote earlier, the introduction of Crowning, particularly by the Russians, occurred much later, in response to the demand for such crownings on the part of the people.

I have noticed that when you are on the thin end of an argument that you reach back into earlier centuries and produce material which was applicable at that time, whether or not it was correct or whether or not you have the correct understanding..

I fully expect that one day you will claim the Popes ought to be married like Peter and takes their wives with them when they make international flights.

"Don't we have the right to take a believing wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does?

1 Corinthians 9:5

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Yes. I know. However, as I wrote earlier, the introduction of Crowning, particularly by the Russians, occurred much later, in response to the demand for such crownings on the part of the people. Crownings, however, were deliberately NOT part of the original Rite of Remarriage, for the very good reason that there can be only ONE sacramental marriage in a lifetime (otherwise, what is the meaning of the statement

"Marriage is not simply a social institution, it is an eternal vocation of the kingdom."?

Your approach, Father, repudiates the Orthodox doctrine of the indissoluability of Christian marriage and mocks the Fathers, who simply refused to countenance remarriages in church, but were willing to reconcile those who remarried (by civil ceremony) with the Church through repentence, prayer and fasting.

Crowning them in a solemn church ceremony with the sacred Mystery of Crowning is hardly simply a matter of "repentance, prayer and fasting."

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Your approach, Father, repudiates the Orthodox doctrine of the indissoluability of Christian marriage and mocks the Fathers,

The indissolubility of marriage is something upheld, I would say, more strongly by the Orthodox than by Western Christian who have a myriad of ways of annulling authentic marriages.

But the Church acknowledges that there are times when a marriage has died and talking about its "indissolubility" in such circumstancess is an insult to God, an offence against truth and to the reality of a couple's inner life. The Church will then issue a statement of ecclesiastical divorce.

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