www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory in Eastern Catholisicm

These are word games.

Russian cannot make the distinction between Hell and Hades - there exists just the one word "ad." You will see this very clearly in the lectures of Archbishop Hilarion where, in English, he uses Hell and Hades interchangeably.

The Copts very clearly understand that the Third Kneeling Prayer is praying for release from Hell. It's the whole reason they deleted it.

We'd have to say that these Moscow priests are woefully ignorant or you misunderstood them?

How can they equate theosis with the dogma of purgatory?

The baby who has been chrismated with the Holy Spirit and receiving the Mysteries of Christ's body and blood - that baby is already on the path of theosis - years before he becomes capable of any sin and could merit punishment or purification for sin.

The Mother of God is on her own path of theosis, millennia ahead of all of us, but nonetheless she is on that path. How on earth can these priests equate her path with Purgatory?

In the age to come after the destruction of the earth, every saved soul will be on the never-ending path of theosis in the heavenly Kingdom. Where is the Purgatory?

I have no dog in this fight. In fact, I rather lean towards the notion that the oldest prayers do encompass those in Hell (real Hell, not Hades or Detroit). But I do know enough to insist that we take a look at the original texts in the original languages, whether that is Greek or Syriac or Slavonic, because a translation of a translation is two steps removed from the original intent of the author.

You confused MP with MoP... Metropolia of Pittsbugh.

Nothing within Latin language on Purgatory excludes the thought that purification/theosis/purgation from sin can begin in this life.

I do not really understand how the Holy Mother of God (or any of the Saints) are involved in an onging purgatorial process? Is it possible that the Orthodox have a different understanding of theosis?

Then start at the beginning, how does the Eastern Orthodox understand/define theosis?

This has always confused me. Is there a language or translation issue.
I often wonder if words are used interchangeably, which can cause confusion.
There is hell, hades, the limbo of abraham, gahenna. the lake of fire. Sometimes the word, hell, is used for any of these. Is this just a peculiarity of the English language?
Are there theological distinctions that define these terms?

For example, the II Council of Lyons states: The souls of those who die in mortal sin, or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

What hell is this that Lyons speaks of, the hell of the damned or hades? Are they tobe there eternally?

it seems that there are multiple issues here.Can anyone shed some light on the theology and terminology?

What about the Latin saints who had private revelations? They had visions of the departed suffering pain in purgatory. I know that nobody is obliged to believe in private revelations, but some had a large impact on the Church and popular piety, like Fatima and the cult of Divine Mercy. Were the saints deceived by the Devil, and the Church errs in her depiction of this gave matter?

Personally, I don't see why it is an either-or. Either private revelations are exactly literally as they are, or the Church is deceived. To me, private revelations are often visions, just as John's vision of the apocalypse.

It can certainly be understood that any private revelation is a vision, but the experienced vision need not be literal, just as John's vision was not literal.

What we see in our visions is conditioned by the culture and Tradition in which we were raised.

A vision doesn't necessarily mean a symbolic dream. The question is: which Tradition is true, and if truth objectively exists. If I had to choose, I would choose purification without fire, you know. I don't want to have painful purification just because I'm Latin

Given the finite ability of human intellect to comprehend the transcendent mysteries of his Creator, just how do you expect visions to work?


It is a silly question because it is a non-sequitur: truth objectively exists, because Christ exists and Christ is truth; all the various Church Traditions are true because the Tradition is simply the Word of God made manifest in his Church. One Christ, one Truth, manifested in diverse Traditions.

Symbol too distant in its substantial aspects from reality it symbolizes makes no sense.



Agreed. Sure, but in that case this:


can't be true. If one Tradition says that there's pain, and the other says there's no pain, both can't be true.

Why do we allow the Latinophrones to set the agenda and draw the parameters of discussions of Eastern liturgy, theology, spirituality and discipline? East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet! (until fifteen minutes after the parousia)?