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Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I had a chance to watch about a half hour of the very loooong Mass of the Canonization of Josemaria Escriva (the Mass was something like five hours). The beauty of the properly executed Western traditions absolutely BEAUTIFUL and completely bedazzled me. You could truly feel what is meant by term Universal Church, with people from Africa, Italy, Spain, Khazakstan (sp?), India, Mexico, etc. chanting the Latin and Greek. To me, the Latin language has a very universal feel to it. I was also pleased to see that at least half (if not more) of the women at the canonization had the Roman head-covering thingies on...the rest of Western Catholicism should really put into practice what happens at the Vatican.

ChristTeen287

P.S. I saw an Eastern Catholic Patriarch (or maybe he wasn't a Patriarch, I dunno) at the Mass. He looked almost liek a younger and healthier John Paul II. I felt bad for the Holy Father with all that apparent heat and of course he was covered in liek 50 pound verstments.

Of course it is beauteful, I can't understand why these traditions are not fully restored.
If there's a Mozart, a Bach, a Beethoven, Palestrina... music that was composed with a true sense of devotion and reverence, music which talks about God, why are people forced to have the type of songs that are used now?

Dear David, dear Alex,

Form my humble point of view our Lord Jesus Christ promised His disciples the Holy Spirit "the Spitit of the Truth" to drive them to the knowlegde of the truth, if Jose Maria Escriva is a saint or not or if the Mother of God did appear in this or that place has nothing to do with the faith of the Church and the Salvation of our souls (Church infability). Canonizations are not part of Pope's infability by two reasons: 1) most of our saints are not saints as a result of a "canononization process", Church did not proclaimed them saints in an oficial manner (for instance I think that Cyril and Methodius were nener proclaimed saints neither by Rome nor Constantinople but they were considered so by the people of God and 2)"canonization" in Western tradition or "insertion of a name of a saint person in the calendar of the Church" in Eastern tradition never was, from the historic point of view, a privilege of the Roman See. Rome had not this privilege in the "Ecumenical Church" neither in the Western Church (there wwere a lot of canonizations in the Western Church not made by the roman pope). If now, in the Catholic Church, only the pope can proclaim someone saint that is a completely different thing.

There Alex, although a Western and a great sinner I consider myself an "orthodox Christian" (or at least i try to be)and there is no place for me in any sect, there is just one place for me, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ.

Dear David, Christeen, Amado Guerrero:

I understand that some of you (Christeen) are "Traditional Roman Catholics", and Opus Dei is as well a quite "Traditional Roman Catholic" organization. You tell me about "vague attacks" and to "provide some proof of your claims". My "attacks" were nothing but vagues, I told you about 1) Opus Dei economic and political power both in Spain and in the Catholic Church 2) separation of couples as a result of the "initiation" of one member in Opus Dei and 3) the participation of Opus Dei in a "proselitic" campaing in Russia and Ukrania (please notice that I not saying that the Greek Catholic Church in Ukrania was making "proselitism").I am sure that if you are interested you will find a lot of information in the internet about these topics. I wonder do you consider that "sexual life" of the married members or semi-members (even when only one of the perteners is a member of O.D) of Opus Dei with periods of abstinence along the year is "orthodox" according to the teachings of the Catholic Church about Christian Marrige? Well Remie, form another Catholic country like Mexico, seems to share some of my oppinions about "The Work". Do you know that in Spain a lot of people wnt the Opus Dei to appear in the list of Sects in Sapin? They will never appear there because there are a lot of minister ofd the Opus dei in the Government. Did you know how may members of Opus Dei were ministers durring the Dictatory of Franco?

Dear Amado Guerrero:
May I edit your post in more correct Spanish:

Querido Francisco:

1o: No soy miembro de OPUS DEI.

2o: Eres un espanol muy brusco.

3o: Soy catolico (romano): no soy liberal ni
tradicionalista; soy un simple catolico no mas.

Hay, caramba!

You can help me with my English if you want.

Un abrazo.

Dear Francisco,

To say the Pope is not infallible when he canonizes a saint is to contradict an article of Catholic faith.

We may believe what we wish.

But to be Catholics in union with Rome, we must believe the faith as taught by the Catholic Church.

Don't take my word for any of this. Ask any priest, monk, nun, or layperson who has ever read a Catholic catechism in their lives.

Consult any Catholic textbook as well.

Alex

Hieromonk Elias (I suppose he is a Byzantine Catholic priest) said in this forum "On a very interesting question, I believe infallibility is to be understood exactly as the Church has defined it, concerning some proclamations of faith and morals, which fit certain definite criteria. It does not include aspects of Liturgy or Liturgical veneration of saints and blesseds. We must avoid the desire to extend this particular mystery beyond the wise and prudent way the Catholic Church has defined it."

Dear Francisco,

Fr. Elias is a Byzantine Catholic Carmelite priest - and a very spiritual and holy man.

What he said has NOTHING to do with the papal act of canonization of saints which is an infallible act.

Again, check out any Catholic site or textbook from any year to discover the truth of this.

Believe me, I am not making it up.

You, of course, do not have to venerate our holy Father among the Saints, Josemaria de Balaguer, Founder of Opus Dei etc.

You only have to acknowledge his sainthood.

I found his writings to be personally helpful to me as a student when I was having tremendous temptations against my faith.

His words helped me not only maintain my faith but vanquish its attackers.

I would see a priest, if I were you, and share this matter with him.

Alex

Francisco,
I have some comments below regarding your reply.

I am sorry to disagree but I think your attacks were vague, as the definition of the word vague is;

1 a : not clearly expressed : stated in indefinite terms <vague accusation> b : not having a precise meaning <vague term of abuse>
2 a : not clearly defined, grasped, or understood : INDISTINCT <only a vague notion of what's needed>; also : SLIGHT <a vague hint of a thickening waistline> <hasn't the vaguest idea> b : not clearly felt or sensed : somewhat subconscious <a vague longing>
3 : not thinking or expressing one's thoughts clearly or precisely <vague about dates and places>
4 : lacking expression : VACANT
5 : not sharply outlined : HAZY

Your attacks, while pointing out something do not specifically define anything. Hence they are vague.

Now on to your "specific" attackes.

What is wrong with this? You obviously mean it as an attack on Opus Dei but I see nothing wrong with what you have stated, which by the way you fail to provide any facts to support this claim.

I have never heard of this one, I think you (again) must provide facts as this is a vague attack. I know a couple of members of Opus Dei that are married and they have not been separated.

Facts man, please provide facts.

Sorry, but it is not my job to find support for your attacks, if you can not provide them then I suggest that you take your "arguments" elsewhere.

As I am a single person, I can not trully answer this, but I do not think it is a bad thing to abstain from sex in a marriage. I think this would be between a married person and his/her spiritual director. Again, I see nothing wrong with having a rule of life where one abstains from sex and other things that give one pleasure during certian times of the Church year.

Can you tell me what would be wrong with this?

I think this attack is just the other side of the "Amchurch" debate.

David

"I do not think it is a bad thing to abstain from sex in a marriage. I think this would be between a married person and his/her spiritual director."

Don't forget the spouse in these decisions!!!

Dear Cantor Joe,

A friend who got ordained as a married priest talked to his presbytera about abstention etc.

She made him call me . . .

I gave him some good advice, to be sure!

At least, the Presbytera thought it was good advice . . .

He asked me if I would consider being his spiritual director (!).

I think that came from his Presbytera too.

Don't worry - I declined.

Alex

Does the I Vatican Council say something about pope infability on canonization or just about the doctrine of the faith and morals?

"We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,he possesses,by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable".

Well I would say no, but do not believe me since I am , as Orthodox Catholic says, under the effects of Spanish recreative drugs. I do not choose what I want to believe, I just believe what the Catholic Church has proclaimed dogma.

Does the I Vatican Council say something about pope infability on canonization or just about the doctrine of the faith and morals?

"We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,he possesses,by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable".

Well I would say no, but do not believe me since I am , as Orthodox Catholic says, under the effects of Spanish recreative drugs. I do not choose what I want to believe, I just believe what the Catholic Church has proclaimed dogma.

What a pity to find the standard nonsense about OD on here! In the secular media, one is used to it, but I thought we could adhere to a higher standard on here. Oh well.

In any event, my fianc�e was in Rome for the canonization since she is a member of OD. By a quirk of Providence, my eparch, Bishop Cornelius, had scheduled my sub-diaconal ordination on the same day, ie., yesterday, and so Annemarie and I could not be together--except of course in prayer. So she was celebrating in the Eternal City while I was celebrating in Brantford, Ontario, at our praznyk (yesterday being, on the Julian calendar, the feast of the Conception of the Forerunner and Baptist, John, our patron)! She prayed to St. Josemaria for my ordination while I prayed to (St.) Andriy Sheptytsky for the same occasion.

She and I have talked about how OD will fit in with our life as a "bi-ecclesial" and "bi-ritual" couple. They have no Eastern branch, though I think the essential thrust of it could inject some life into the East. However, in order to do that, some of what I would regard as the excessively Roman elements of the Work would have to go. I mean by this such things as the rosary (not bad in itself of course but not Eastern either) and in particular a great emphasis on centralized papal authority, among other issues.

Anyway, this computer is acting up so I will post this and see.

Pray for me, an unworthy sinner, that I honour the office just conferred!

Adam DeVille

Dear Francisco,

I did not say you were under the effect of anything, except perhaps some wrong impressions.

I suggested, jokingly, if recreative drugs were legal in Spain. I withdraw that comment since a sense of humour is not appreciated. I honestly thought you were saying that St Maximus and St Theodore the Studite were against union with Rome.

And, as one Catholic to another, you have proved nothing with your quote about Vatican I.

If you do some further study on canonization, you will see that the Catholic Church indeed does consider papal canonization as an act of papal infallibility.

Again, I believe you to be quite sober. But also quite wrong on a fundamental point of Catholic faith. You refuse to even entertain that you could be wrong because of your dislike for the person of our Father among the Saints, St Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer, Founder of Opus Dei and great Saint of Spain.

Have a nice day.

Alex

Alex, what is your sources concerning the infallibility of canonizations? I have not been able to find any source that categorically states the Church has spoken definitively on this issue. Most of the articles I have come across say that while most theologians agree that this would be considered an infallible act, that there is not total agreement on this issue and that Rome has not stated this is the case. While I do not doubt the action of the Holy Spirit upon those making the decisions who to beatify or canonize, I also understand that these decisions are made using the writings, personal stories of those who have known the candidates, as well as the claimed miracles. I have also read of candidates for canonization (some have even been beatified) whose causes were later dropped because of something that came out during the investigation. Even with the work of the Holy Spirit, I find it hard to be 100% certain that every person declared a saint is truly enjoying the beatific vision at this time. Look at some who were removed from the Latin calender back in the late 60's because it was determined they may have never existed? St. Philomena is a good example of that. Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Fr. Holweck's book gives a good background on this as does the Catholic encyclopaedia.

Here is a good definition:

http://www.newadvent.org/faq/faq023.htm

It is very true that candidates for sainthood can have their causes dropped.

If they are "Blessed" and something is found out that would prevent their universal liturgical cult, then their cultus remains local and there are many examples of this.

Recently, the cause of our former Governor-General ran into a snag as it was discovered that during World War I, he was in charge of a firing squad . . .

The Emperor Charlemagne was canonized by an antipope as "Saint." Another, legitimate pope later reduced him to a "Blessed" and his feast is observed liturgically only at Aachen.

St. Lucifer of Cagliari, who oppoed St Hilary concerning the reception back of apostates, has his cult "limited" to the churches in which he is honoured on Sardinia.

St Philumena was not "decanonized." She was already a saint - it was just that her "relics" were discovered to be fraudulent, and were not even those of a woman.

St Don Bosco had a great veneration for St Philumena. (The joke, and I hope Francisco doesn't get mad at me for this also, is that Don Bosco is the patron of "useless cases" as he spent half his life confessing children and the other half in praying to St Philumena).

St Philumena's cult has never been condemned and her cord and litany are in wide use. Just ask Joe Zollars . . .

Most of the saints we have were never canonized by a pope. But the fact that they are approved by Rome for the universal calendar etc.

When a pope canonizes a saint, since popes started doing this, that is an exercise in papal infallibility, 100%.

What do you think of our Father among the Saints, the Holy Founder of Opus Dei, Josemaria Escriva?

And is a "Holy Fool" in Latin, a "Dopus Dei?"

Alex