www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Can East and West Coexist With Married Priests?

This was, however, the norm in the great urban centers of late antiquity and the Middle Ages. Constantinople and Rome alike were cities of more than a million in population, filled with churches great and small. Multiple liturgies did not become the norm in the West until the 14th century. The norm for the Orthodox Church remains one liturgy per church, which is why the cities of the Orthodox world are still full of churches, some of them very small indeed. It's not a rural phenomenon.


Vatican II called on the Church to develop a theology of the laity; its inability to do this must be accounted one of the failures of the post-conciliar era. The present situation merely exacerbates clericalism by creating a host of neo-clerical ministries competing for power and resources within the parishes. What was once done by a horde of minor orders and monastics is now done by laymen acting like clerics--but also demanding a salary.

The real answer is to dismantle the bureaucratization of the parish, flatten the organization, and have the laity be self-organizing, with the pastor acting more as "conductor" than administrator.

Well, since the minors orders have been surpressed, religious orders are down, and there is a shortage of priests, it seems that there are two options; either have the laity fill the gap made up of formed individuals who have a calling to serve within the Church, or simply let the Church wither in its inability to meet the needs of the people.

The USCCB document, Co-workers in the vineyard comes directly from the calling of Vatican II. As someone in the trenches myself, with a certificate in lay ecclesial ministry from my diocese, I see the need. There's no one to do it otherwise.

There is a severe lack of credibility in the latin clergy right now. That is a shame, but the priest scandal is due to the clergy's problems, not the laity. Many people seek those in lay ministry because we have families and we are formed to apply our formation to the pracitical problems in life that many latin clergy simply don't have direct experience.

It would be great if there were enough clergy to fill the gaps. lay ministry cannot and will not replace the ordained clergy. If you read the USCCB document, it puts the relationship between the two in its proper context within ministry.

BTW, i don't get a salary. I do not work full time in my parish. What most lay ministers do, they do because they are called and the Church has equipped them. Their earnings come from day-jobs.

I have no problem with laymen doing essential tasks within the parish. In fact, there are few tasks a priest can do that a layman cannot, and almost all of those are sacramental in nature. If a layman can keep the books, run the religious ed program, do charitable outreach, and sing with the choir, then he should do it. But I object to having these tasks professionalized and called "ministries". Volunteers should be doing almost all of this, and while they should be reimbursed for expenses, I don't think they should see this as a salaried position. it only encourages empire building.

stuart,

i think that we probably agree in the most part. There are things that only the clergy can do. Their task is to govern (the bishops and the pastor over a particular parish) as well as their sacramental duties. I don't think that lay ministers should be preaching the homily. This is forbidden, but it is still done in some latin rite parishes.

I'm not quite sure why the term ministry would be bothersome. While i understand the caution of blurring the lines between the roles of the clergy and laity in terms of the sacramental mission of the clergy, ministry can also be seen in a broader sense. That is why it is often referred to as ecclesial ministry to make it distinct from ecclesiastical ministry. Some Bishops (my own), prefer the word apostolate. I've never had the opportunity to ask him why he prefers this, but I suspect that he is cautious over a possibility that some lay people might confuse their vocation as being what clergy can do, which they clearly cannot.

my own role is ongoing catechesis of our religious education teachers, who teach from pre-K through 8th grade to equip them to teach the kids, to plan and lead RCIA with our DRE, and to assist in other various adult faith formation programs in the parish as they come about. We always work under the direction and with the guidance of the pastor, but i work more closely with the Director of Relig. Ed. since she is salaried full-time. The pastor always knows what we are up to, but he just doesn't have the time to be involved in every single thing, as I'm sure you know.

"The real answer is to dismantle the bureaucratization of the parish, flatten the organization, and have the laity be self-organizing, with the pastor acting more as "conductor" than administrator."

From our experience in the Orthodox world, beware of creeping congregationalism. It can foster a certain anti-clericism. As my late Bishop observed, in the final analysis, the Church is NOT a democracy.

Congregationalism is merely the mirror image of clericalism. Neither is a proper model of Church, which ought to be a true communion in the Holy Spirit, in which each defers to the others according to their status and gifts. Proper balance and understanding of limits is the key.

A more trenchant comment from one Russian Orthodox bishop to a newcomer from Russia: "In America, every priest thinks he's a bishop, but every parish council thinks it's a patriarch".

Ye gads! Is that abuse still happening? It can only happen if nobody understands the purpose and symbolism of the homily within the liturgy.

I don't know where you are finding your information regarding priests assignments. In all 3 dioceses in which I have been involved, the trend has been much the opposite, where 1 priest is serving 2 or 3 parishes. There are only a handful of parishes that have more than one priest serving.

You can't have it both ways, unless of course you can find a very small parish made up of wealthy people who can support a priest along with his wife and children.

A small parish is usually one that is fighting against shutting it's doors permanently.

Here in Northern Virginia (Diocese of Arlington), the larger parishes have several priests, as a rule.

How do small Orthodox parishes manage? How do small Protestant congregations manage? How do small synagogues manage? For that matter, how do Latin parishes with married priests manage? All of them have married clergy, yet somehow they manage. Not all are wealthy, but a relatively small contribution from each household adds up. As I said, the attitude that a dollar a week is sufficient just won't do. Catholics will just have to reconcile themselves to digging deeper into their wallets.

They simply don't pay anywhere close to the $75k that was proposed earlier. I must say, we look at figures like that and "shake our heads"...There are unfortunately priests and their families that live close to the poverty level...however, my experiences have been that although the paycheck is small, with no mortgage and the limited housing expenses, even in a "poor county" like Fairfield County CT it is possible to "get by" on a mere $40k...we forget the generosity of the congregation for holidays and meals the good babushkas help to provide...

I hear about it, but mostly only on the internet. Personally, I have never come across it, but I am hardly an authority on such things. Unfortuantely, there are many latins who do not understand the symbolism of a priest giving the homily.

Job is correct. I know that within ACROD the pastoral compensation levels set by the Diocesan Sobor (Council) come nowhere near the $75K level. (I believe that is also the case within most of the OCA.) I personally am familiar with a majority of the ACROD clergy over the past three or four decades and I am unaware of any families that lived in, or even near, 'poverty.' As I posted earlier, again in mostly smaller parishes, many priests and Panis work in the secular world to supplement their parish compensation. Certainly, I do know of a few parishes that treated their pastors poorly and the Chancery usually dealt with those issues administratively and promptly. The generosity of people, and clergy families, who need to stick together to keep their parish going, is amazing in terms being able to make things happen. When I visit one of the smaller parishes in various parts of the Mid-Atlantic, I am always amazed by the per-capita weekly offerings which reflect the needs of the parish - and not necessarily the average income level of the congregation! The 'labors of love' (i.e. donated labor for property maintenance, youth education, chanting, choir and, of course, fund-raising) are a vital part of the fabric of such parish familes. In other words, if there is a will, there is a way and God will provide.

In this area, most Latin parishes have 2-3 priests serving, but that is not nearly enough given the thousands of families in each parish. Compare that to the 20 or so families in my parish, served by just one priest.

In my experience, situations with 1 priest serving several parishes are found in less populated areas, where just one Mass will suffice for each parish.