www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Hi, I'm Orthodox, and I believe in the IC.

Was not John the Forerunner exempted from original sin also? Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit Lk 1:41 NKJV and
"...the babe leaped in my womb for joy." Lk 1:44. Elizabeth said this to the Theotokos at the Visitation.

We see that the teaching of the Ecumenical Patriatrchate in this Catechism is that the Mother of God was cleansed from Original Sin in her teenage years, at the when the Archangel Gabriel visited her and sought her "fiat" to the conception of the Seccond Person of the Trinity as a man.

Some things flow from this teaching...

1. She cannot have been immaculately conceived by Joachim and Anna

2. She cannot have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the time of her conception since her soul was possessed of Original Sin until the time of the coming of the Archangel and the conception of Jesus Christ. Scripture itself confirms this with the Archangel's words that "the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee.."

The pious belief is that Saint John was not exempted from Original Sin. He was possessed by Original Sin until he was six months in the womb and was cleansed from it at the time when the Mother of God visited Elizabeth and Elizabeth herself was "filled with the Holy Spirit" - presumably her own cleansing from Original Sin as well as the baby boy in her womb. Luke 1:39-45

I don't believe that anyone has posted this yet, so I'll post it. I'm interested in what you all think about this. I've bolded the parts that are most surprising/significant.

This purports to be from the service of Great Vespers for the Conception of St. Anne. Does anyone know whether this is the actual text used in Orthodox churches? I can only find it so far on Eastern Catholic websites (for example: http://stirenaeus.net/vespers_texts/99991209/99991209pdf.pdf):

[quote]It is fitting that the Queen of heaven and earth,
who is more precious than the Cherubim,
and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim,
[b]be conceived and remain immaculate as the angels[/b],
so that they who are servants of the Lord
can boast of their own Queen, the Mother of God.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

It is fitting that the unique and chosen woman
[b]be conceived without sin[/b],
and the power of Satan is now taken away;
for [b]the Mother of God will never bow before him[/b].
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

[b]It is fitting that the Second Eve
be created and remain without sin
in the manner of the Second Adam[/b];
for the rebirth of mankind now takes place,
just as the fall came through the first Adam and the first Eve.
Christ has renewed all through his new birth,
and it was Mary that gave birth to Him.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

Glory… Now…

Before the nativity of the Son of God,
it was fitting for the Father
to bestow [b]the most pure conception[/b] upon the Mother of God,
who is betrothed of the Holy Spirit,
[b]that she might be filled with heavenly gifts
in a manner beyond all other creatures.[/b]
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.[/quote]

Which is exactly what the I.C. dogma is all about.

As said before: The doctrine is Eastern through and through, but since the Pope of Rome defined as dogma, the hard-line Orthodox have denounced it either by saying that the Mother of God was not fully purified until the conception of Our Lord, or by saying that the purity of the Mother of God at her own conception is no different than that of any other human being at their conception.

Quite clearly, the text taken from the Vespers service quoted above is at odds with both of these positions.

Shalom,
Memo

Having past hope borne as fruit the holy Virgin, who shall give birth in the flesh unto the God of all, once-barren Anna is radiant with jubilation, rejoicing, dancing and crying mightily: All ye tribes of Israel, rejoice with me today who have conceived, casting off the blame I had when childless; the Benefactor hath hearkened to my prayer, and in His goodness, He hath been well pleased to heal all the pains of my grieving heart through the pangs of my childbirth, even as of old He promised me.





He that made water to well up from a dry rock granteth now the Ever-virgin Lady to thy womb as fruit, O Anna, and it is she from whom the water of our salvation shall issue forth for us; no more dost thou sojourn on the earth as fruitless earth; thou art estranged from reproach henceforth, for thou shalt bring forth the earth that beareth the Wheat of Life Himself, and He shall take away every reproach from all mortals, as He is well pleased to do, through His bowels of mercy being formed in what was not His own.





The Prophets’ mystic predictions find fulfillment, for the holy mountain is established in the womb; the great majestic throne of the King is being readied; and the divine ladder hath been planted firm; on the earth, the place where God doth walk hath been prepared; the bush that burned not doth now begin to bud and sprout forth; and the myrrh-vessel of holiness doth now well forth to check the streams of barrenness of chaste Anna, the eldress of godly mind; let us all call her blessed, while extolling her with fervent faith.



Glory… Now…




The mighty work that was kept hidden from Angels and men, that marvelous mystery foretold in oracles from the beginning of time, is today formed as a babe in the loins of chaste Anna: Mary, the Child of God, is prepared as the habitation of the Sovereign King of the ages, for the refashioning of our race. With conscience clear, let us make entreaty, crying unto her: Since thou art the protection of us Christians, intercede with thy Son and God that our souls be saved.

http://www.antiochianladiocese.org/...commem/virgin_conception/Dec-08-VESP.rtf

In message 348828 Fr Lance gave this verse for 3rd Sticheron. It is quite different. I imagine that Eastern Catholics have varying liturgical material?

The saying of the prophets are now being fulfilled: the holy mountain is planted in the womb; the divine ladder is set up; the throne of the great king is ready; the God-inspired city is being adorned. The unburnable bush is beginning to bud forth, and the treasure house of grace is overflowing. It is spreading over the rivers of unfruitfulness of the god-wise Anne whom we glorify in faith.

3rd Sticheron of Vespers for the Conception of the Theotokos

I'm becoming very perplexed by this. I can't find the text that I cited (the "Great Vespers for the Conception of St. Anna") in any Eastern Orthodox sources with the same wording. I can find it with the same wording in various Eastern Catholic sources, including the previous source (here [stirenaeus.net]) and in a service text from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]), and I can also find it with partially the same wording in some Eastern Orthodox sources (see, for example, here: http://www.noeticspace.com/AutoIndex/Liturgical_Resources/Menaion/12.December/DEC09.DOC). However, the Eastern Orthodox sources that I've found all lack the most important wording that I bolded in my previous post.

Does anyone know of the text with the wording that I cited being used in Orthodox services? I've heard Fr. Thomas Loya refer to it as an "ancient" liturgical text, I think, but I can't locate it anywhere, so it's so far not the great evidence that it initially appeared to be.

Yes. Some due to translation issues; others due to separation issues, and others due to different liturgical traditions.

Each Sui Iuris church may, within the bounds of its competence, make adjustments to propers just like any other liturgical text.

Patriarchal churches may do so with notice to Rome (that is, they can promulgate such on their own authority, but Rome can veto something which violates the Faith), while eparchial and metropolitan churches require Rome's approval as Patriarch.

For better or worse, Rome's been pretty lax about the whole issue since Vatican II...

For which Churches is the Pope the Patriarch?

Patriarch of the Russians?

Patriarch of the Ruthenians?

Patriarch of Skopje?

Patriarch of Addis Ababa?

? ?

A couple of things:

aramis is correct that Eastern Catholic Churches tend to do what they want with liturgical texts. They are not supposed to. Pius X made it clear with his statement: " "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (no additions, no subtractions, no alterations).

The Liturgical Instruction renews this directive: "In every effort of liturgical renewal, therefore, the practice of the Orthodox brethren should be taken into account, knowing it, respecting it and distancing from it as little as possible so as not to increase the existing separation, but rather intensifying efforts in view of eventual adaptations, maturing and working together. Thus will be manifested the unity that already subsists in daily receiving the same spiritual nourishment from practicing the same common heritage." (Section 21)

Having said that, it is true that some of the Greek Catholic books contain texts supporting the Immaculate Conception. I am not a Slavonic expert but one who is tells me that the texts are poorly written (at least in the Ruthenian books). It is clear that they are a latinization (a purposeful attempt to provide support for the Latin theology). IMHO the liturgical books should be restored with the texts in use previously, or with those texts currently in use across the rest of the Byzantine Churches.

I would love to see a historical discussion of how these specific liturgical texts have changed over the centuries. It appears that the prayers and hymns for the Feast of the Conception of St Anna have moved in a more Latin direction in the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions. When did this happen? Have any alterations been made to the texts in the Orthodox jurisdictions in an anti-Latin direction?

The text I provided is from the Uniontown Basilian Festal Menaion. I purposely chose a Sticheron from Vespers as the Stichera at Psalm 140 are usually the most ancient texts extent.

Now as regards the Conception of the Theotokos, among the Orthodox it is a Doxology rank Feast. For Feasts of Doxology rank the festal propers are the Stichera at Psalm 140, (sometimes the Aposticha), the Troparion, the Sessional Hymns, the Canon, the Hymn of Light, and the Stichera at the Praises.

In these texts in the Uniontown Menaion there is no mention of the Immaculate Conception or the Latin theology behind it.

Among the various Greek Catholic Churches this feast is Vigil Rank. Meaning Greek Catholics needed to create Stichera for the Litija. These texts in the Uniontown Menaion do indicate the Immaculate Conception and the Latin theology underpinning it.

The Pope of Rome exercises patriarchal functions for Eastern Catholic Churches without a Patriarch or Major Archbishop. So the Pope does function as Patriarch for Ethiopians, Carpatho-Ruthenians, Slovaks, Hungarians, Croats, Italo-Greeks/Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Russians, and Belarusians,