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Fr Lance, Kucharek cites the following texts:
"This day, O faithful, from saintly parents begins to take being the spotless lamb, the most pure tabernacle, Mary ..."
"She is conceived ... the only immaculate one";
"Having conceived the most pure dove, Anne filled...."
[References: From the Office of Matins, the Third Ode of the Canon for the feast; From the Office of Matins, the Stanzas during the Seating, for the same feast; From the Office of Matins, the Sixth Ode of the Canon for the same feast.]
Have you found these texts anywhere?
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Among the various Greek Catholic Churches this feast is Vigil Rank. So would we say that the "upgrading" of this Feast from Doxology to Vigil is in itself a latinisation and the Feast should return to its ancient ranking?
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[quote=aramis]... while eparchial and metropolitan churches require Rome's approval as Patriarch. For which Churches is the Pope the Patriarch? Patriarch of the Russians? Patriarch of the Ruthenians? Patriarch of Skopje? Patriarch of Addis Ababa? ? ? The Pope of Rome exercises patriarchal functions for Eastern Catholic Churches without a Patriarch or Major Archbishop. So the Pope does function as Patriarch for Ethiopians, Carpatho-Ruthenians, Slovaks, Hungarians, Croats, Italo-Greeks/Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Russians, and Belarusians, How is his Patriarchal status commemorated liturgically by these Churches?
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The Ruthenians in America commemorate the Pope (in some cases in a dedicated petition), then the Metropolitan and then the Bishop.
Shalom,
Memo
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... while eparchial and metropolitan churches require Rome's approval as Patriarch. For which Churches is the Pope the Patriarch? Any Catholic Church Sui Iuris without a patriarch of its own. And his role is, while not stated as such, in practice that of archpatriarch. The primary alteration of the Liturgies in becoming unia was the mandating of commemoration of the pope whenever the bishop and metropolitan are, and encouraging patriarchal commemoration at the same point. The Ruthenian liturgies, per the books, show the papal commemoration as a separate verse in the ektenia; what I've seen shows that to be pretty typical on-paper...
Last edited by aramis; 02/27/10 04:07 AM.
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... These texts in the Uniontown Menaion do indicate the Immaculate Conception and the Latin theology underpinning it. The Immaculate Conception is Catholic dogma not Latin theological speculation. What words/terms do and which do not satisfy a true Eastern articulation of this dogma? Is just saying the pertinent words-- conception, immaculate -- automatically "Latin theology." It would seem then that the discussion is over before it can start. As Catholic dogma -- truth -- pravoslavnych (for us) in the basic meaning of the word, there surely must be a legitimate Eastern articulation both liturgically and theologically. Eastern theological terminology would be deficient, bereft of full expression, if it were incapable of doing so.
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Fr. Kimel, The Uniontown Menaion only has the first and ninth Odes of the Canon. It does have all the Sessional Hymns/Kathismata/Stanzas for the Seating. Theotokion of Sessional Hymn I from the the Uniontown Menaion In time past the company of prophets announced the holy child, the pure and spotless Virgin, whom Anne conceived in her sterile and fruitless womb on this day. With our hearts filled with joy, let us who are saved through her, call her blessed and the only Immaculate One. The same from the Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of LA Of old, the Prophets’ choir clearly cried out beforehand and preached the Child of God and the immaculate Maiden, whom Anna conceived though she had been barren and bare no fruit. Now with joy of heart, let us the faithful all bless her as the only undefiled and all-blameless Maiden; for we have been saved through her. http://www.antiochianladiocese.org/...mem/virgin_conception/Dec-09-ORTHROS.pdfFr. Deacon Lance
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Among the various Greek Catholic Churches this feast is Vigil Rank. So would we say that the "upgrading" of this Feast from Doxology to Vigil is in itself a latinisation and the Feast should return to its ancient ranking? I would say no upgrading alone is not a latinization. Local Churches have always upgraded feasts of importance to themselves. Since the Theotokos, under her title of Immaculate Conception, is the Patroness of the US it makes sense to upgrade the feast. I would prefer to leave the feast on Dec 9 and use the texts he have inherited or produce ones more in line with our own theological approach to the issue.
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... These texts in the Uniontown Menaion do indicate the Immaculate Conception and the Latin theology underpinning it. The Immaculate Conception is Catholic dogma not Latin theological speculation. What words/terms do and which do not satisfy a true Eastern articulation of this dogma? Is just saying the pertinent words-- conception, immaculate -- automatically "Latin theology." It would seem then that the discussion is over before it can start. As Catholic dogma -- truth -- pravoslavnych (for us) in the basic meaning of the word, there surely must be a legitimate Eastern articulation both liturgically and theologically. Eastern theological terminology would be deficient, bereft of full expression, if it were incapable of doing so. Pope John Paul II asked Eastern Catholics to supply the positive aspect of the definition, that the Theotokos was indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception. The Litija texts fall back to a Latin outlook, talking of being "conceived without stain of sin" rather than being "full of grace" or "indwelt by the Holy Spirit". Indeed our tradition is not deficient so we don't need to adopt Latin constucts when our own are more than capable.
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To be up front with anyone who reads this, I didn't read all of the posts, so please forgive me if someone already covered this. It seems to me that both Catholics and Orthodox agree that the Holy and Blessed Virgin never committed any sin. Also, the Catholic position is that she was purified and sanctified at her Conception, while the Orthodox position is that she was purified and sanctified at the Annunciation. Then, the problem is not an "if" but a "when."
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St. Mary’s Immaculate Conception:Some Church fathers do not believe Virgin Mary to be without faults, such as St. Irenaus, Origen, St. John Chrysostom. However, these opinions do not represent the widespread Mariological Tradition of the early Church. We believe that St. Mary’s holiness is unique and surpasses heavenly creatures; she passed all her life in holiness as the true Ark of the Covenant, which was made of incorruptible wood laid with Gold from inside and outside. The Orthodox Church, whose love towards St. Mary is deep-rooted, considers her more holy than all the heavenly creatures, whilst a natural member of the human race. We do not set her apart from the human race by assuming that she was born without original sin (immaculate conception), as if she was born of no human seed. Thus, the Church makes a distinction between St. Mary’s life before and after the moment of Divine Incarnation. St. Mary herself declared her need of salvation when she said, “my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lk 1:47) This Orthodox concept preserved our Church from any exaggeration or confusion between our Lord Jesus Christ and His blessed mother; no worship is offered to her, but only veneration and praise. In other words, in the Orthodox Church there is an accurate line that divides Lord Jesus Christ from His blessed mother; the only one who was Immaculately Conceived is our Lord Jesus Christ. This lecture is adapted from ‘Comparative Theology’ by H.H. Pope Shenouda III and ‘St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept’ by Fr. Tadros Malaty. http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/marilecture1.pdf
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St. Mary’s Immaculate Conception:Some Church fathers do not believe Virgin Mary to be without faults, such as St. Irenaus, Origen, St. John Chrysostom. However, these opinions do not represent the widespread Mariological Tradition of the early Church. We believe that St. Mary’s holiness is unique and surpasses heavenly creatures; she passed all her life in holiness as the true Ark of the Covenant, which was made of incorruptible wood laid with Gold from inside and outside. The Orthodox Church, whose love towards St. Mary is deep-rooted, considers her more holy than all the heavenly creatures, whilst a natural member of the human race. We do not set her apart from the human race by assuming that she was born without original sin (immaculate conception), as if she was born of no human seed. Thus, the Church makes a distinction between St. Mary’s life before and after the moment of Divine Incarnation. St. Mary herself declared her need of salvation when she said, “my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lk 1:47) This Orthodox concept preserved our Church from any exaggeration or confusion between our Lord Jesus Christ and His blessed mother; no worship is offered to her, but only veneration and praise. In other words, in the Orthodox Church there is an accurate line that divides Lord Jesus Christ from His blessed mother; the only one who was Immaculately Conceived is our Lord Jesus Christ. This lecture is adapted from ‘Comparative Theology’ by H.H. Pope Shenouda III and ‘St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept’ by Fr. Tadros Malaty. http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/marilecture1.pdf The above repeats two errors. One, that the Immaculate Conception implies the Theotokos was conceived outside of normal intercourse between Joachima and Anne, which it does not. Two, that being restored to the original state that Adam and Eve enjoyed somehow seperates her humanity from ours, which it does not.
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I was of the opinion that the Immaculate Conception didn't make sense from a Byzantine perspective, but if one considers that sin is not part of human nature then it seems the IC could fit into Byzantine theology. If sin is a sickness or a disease that is not something inherent in our nature, then the idea of Mary being purified from sin at conception would not be separating Mary from the rest of humanity in anyway. Ontologically she has the same nature as any of us.
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[quote=Hieromonk Ambrose] St. Mary’s Immaculate Conception:Some Church fathers do not believe Virgin Mary to be without faults, such as St. Irenaus, Origen, St. John Chrysostom. However, these opinions do not represent the widespread Mariological Tradition of the early Church. We believe that St. Mary’s holiness is unique and surpasses heavenly creatures; she passed all her life in holiness as the true Ark of the Covenant, which was made of incorruptible wood laid with Gold from inside and outside. The Orthodox Church, whose love towards St. Mary is deep-rooted, considers her more holy than all the heavenly creatures, whilst a natural member of the human race. We do not set her apart from the human race by assuming that she was born without original sin (immaculate conception), as if she was born of no human seed. Thus, the Church makes a distinction between St. Mary’s life before and after the moment of Divine Incarnation. St. Mary herself declared her need of salvation when she said, “my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lk 1:47) This Orthodox concept preserved our Church from any exaggeration or confusion between our Lord Jesus Christ and His blessed mother; no worship is offered to her, but only veneration and praise. In other words, in the Orthodox Church there is an accurate line that divides Lord Jesus Christ from His blessed mother; the only one who was Immaculately Conceived is our Lord Jesus Christ. This lecture is adapted from ‘Comparative Theology’ by H.H. Pope Shenouda III and ‘St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept’ by Fr. Tadros Malaty. http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/marilecture1.pdfThe above repeats two errors. One, that the Immaculate Conception implies the Theotokos was conceived outside of normal intercourse between Joachima and Anne, which it does not. Two, that being restored to the original state that Adam and Eve enjoyed somehow seperates her humanity from ours, which it does not. I am beginning to realise that I may have to admit that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception is beyond the comprehension of all except probably the Catholic Magisterium itself. As we saw earlier in the thread Patriarch Bartholomew does not understand it. This is in spite of the 5 years (1963 - 1968) which he spent studying at the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome. Now we see that Pope Shenouda of the Copts fails to understand it and he is considered no mean theologian. Anybody venture any ideas why this dogma seems beyond the grasp of any theologians but Catholic ones?
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Because most non-Catholics are coming at it not from a neutral position, but from the "against" as a default - therefore failing to grasp the concept either from a truly Latin perspective, nor with the mindset of reconciling the view with the commonly held (but not definitely held) Orthodox view.
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