www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Can East and West Coexist With Married Priests?

Neil,


I think you are being unfair to Opus Dei, and perhaps even engaging in calumny. I am not officially a member of OD, but I have been very involved with them for some years now, even up to receiving regular spiritual direction from them. In that time I have never sensed any acrimony towards Eastern Christians. Yes, they are very "Latin" but that is not wrong, is it? I'm sure some members think that their particular spirituality is the only true spirituality, but they would not be the first Christians to believe this. I have found that my own association with OD has in many ways deepened my appreciation of the East, especially its ascetical practices.

BTW, you can see my own opinion of Fr. Touze's unfortunate remarks on my blog: http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/11/are-married-priests-an-exception/

Father Ambrose, your comments on John Of Kronstadt are fascinating because I know that letters exist between him and his wife and they seem to have argued over money matters (so a OCA priest told me). If you are right about the nature of their marriage, his wife (at least in my eyes) should have the one who was canonized! Although he may have been all the good things that have have been said of him, he treated his wife miserably. In a word, he should never have married. One could honestly ask if he should have been canonized!

Francis, my brother, (can't get used to calling you 'Eric' after so long )

You're correct. My opinion was harshly stated. I readily admit to a lesser degree of tolerance than one should probably have for OD - not because they are 'very Latin', but because I perceive them - rightly or wrongly - as zealots and zealots, of any stripe, make me wary because I equate zealotry with intolerance. Admittedly, I am unaware of any particular bias on the part of OD against the Eastern Churches and I transferred my reaction to the father's comments to the institutional entity without a valid basis for doing so. My apologies to Opus Dei.

Your blog entry, as is always the case when it comments on matters of the East, I find refreshingly forthcoming and reflective of a caring that our Churches be neither ignored nor treated as the redhaired stepchildren in a family of towheads. Thank you for it.

Many years,

Neil

Why do you say this about him...because he did not want to consummate his marriage?

Did he not make this intention of living like siblings quite clear before he married?

His wife may have not liked it, or maybe she did, or maybe she didn't care all that much, or maybe she grew to accept it-- who are we to really know how any individual feels or what goes on in a marriage between two people and behind closed doors? Are we looking at this marriage through our sex obsessed modern culture that says that even 100 year olds are supposed to be happily having and wanting sexual relations and that absolutely no one should go without it?!?

The only alternative women had at that time in history was to remain unmarried and be called and labeled an 'old maid', which was a terrible fate and embarrassment to the family of a woman in the old countries.

Marriage is for the sanctification of both partners in Orthodox theology. How do we know that she was not fortunate in that maybe she became quite devout and graced by the Holy Spirit as a consequence of having such a platonic marriage and holy partner and that, thus, her soul is now in Paradise?

As for these 'money matters', that again, is a private and personal thing between two individuals, and is not a sinful thing in and of itself! St. John Krondstadt *was* a human being, and not a monastic one. Even the holiest individuals have to address wordly matters.

I do not think that defaming and idly gossiping about a saint is a good thing...the tongue is our most sinful member. I find this particular conversation quite distasteful and ask Fr. Ambrose and JohnZonaras to *not* continue with it.

May our Lord forgive us all. St. John Krondstadt intercede for us. Amen.

Alice, Moderator

Neil,

A great deal of my appreciation for the Eastern Churches has come from this forum over the years, especially from your posts. I appreciate your apologies to OD.

Amen!

Apart from the case of this particular man (I don't know much about St. John of Kronstadt)- I think that marrying while being opposed to its main purpose, that is procreation, would be a good basis for marriage annulment in contemporary West (defect of intent). You don't have to marry to sanctify yourself. Why marry then? Just to avoid being called an old spinster, or to achieve a social goal? But the end doesn't sanctify the means. It's like being ordained to the priesthood just to wear fancy vestments.


Such women could always have entered a convent or engage in other sublime forms of motherhood, like charity or helping their family. Every family had old spinster aunts and they had their place in the society.

It is intolerant zealots who preferred to die for Christ, rather than light a pinch of incense for a false god, that build the Church

Seriously speaking, my experience is that Opus Dei is rather quiet, very quiet. I was hardly aware of the existence of their apostolate in my hometown until a friend has told me.

No more idle conversation about the holy saint of God, John Krondstadt. Here is a brief account of his life.

http://www.vor.ru/English/Christian_Message/program_7.html

Well, the East has existed with herself for years with both married and celibate priests.

Why not East and West?

On this topic, Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was quoted in this Czech article as stating the need to look seriously at all the causes for the current sex scandals in the Catholic Church in Europe, including the possible role an all celibate clergy may have had to play. This is interesting because Cardinal Schonborn is looked upon in Europe as very conservative as well as very pro Eastern. It's not just the liberals who question the possibility that an all celibate clergy may be somewhat of a "hiding place" in the Western Church for those who aren't marriageable. I tried to find this in English but was unable. http://www.lidovky.cz/vidensky-kardinal-navrhuje-prekoumat-opravnenost-celibat-ptd (I'm not saying that all unmarried priests are 'unmarriageable' just that such a system may create a little corner for those men who are)

Francis,

I thought your blog article [ericsammons.com] well done. I am surprised at a few of the comments to your article that suggest that the East should reconsider its tradition, however. I'm hoping that view doesn't gain more support among Catholics.

Drs. Kellog and Graham developed the corn flake and Graham flour (now only used in the Graham cracker) for the same reasone--they belonged to sects that were opposed to sex *within* marriage, and thought these mild foods would supress drive.

History has not recorded what Mrs. Graham and Mrs. Kellog felt about this . . .

hawk

An interesting New York Times article [nytimes.com] , published today, on a married Ukrainian Catholic priest in Rdno, Ukraine. It also contains many pictures from his family and parish.

This is becoming more common within the UGCC in the States. The local parish in Johnson City, NY has had married priests for the past ten years or so.