www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics

Pulled this off the Melkite website. Very interesting. It was promulagted "ad experimentum" from February, 2009 through October 2010, at which point the Patriarch is to meet with the Bishops from English speaking countries to formally approve it on a permanent basis. I did a quick read of this,and from what I can see, it is quite good. The celebration is a "full" one. The priest is adressed by the deacon as "Master". The term "Orthodox" is used instead of "true faith". There is not one shred of political correctness, or of "horizontal inclusive" language. Enjoy!

http://www.melkite.org/PDF/LITURGY2009.pdf

There was some unhappiness about not saying "ages of ages" instead of "forever and ever." However, the explanation is that they are following use of English Bibles.

Actually, the so-called "Synodal" liturgy with just one antiphon is provided for.

There are two things I would suggest (were anyone to step out from behind a bush to ask me):

1. Please allow for the proper Ambo prayers.

2. In the petition for travelers, add "....and in the vastness of the heavens." Those in the space shuttle (and future space missions) are NOT traveling through the air.

Good point. "Ages of ages" is a more lieral translation, and the meaning is not lost to modern ears.


Yes, but the full celebration is "in there". Sadly, this is not the case in the Ruthenian translation. The abbreviation has become the "licit" norm for us.
There are two things I would suggest (were anyone to step out from behind a bush to ask me):


Yes, and a faithful translation is of the utmost importance. We are using a multiplicity of Ambo prayers, but some of them, because of "horizontal inclusive" spins to the translation make one cringe. There is one particular Ambo prayer which addresses Our Lord by saying, instead of "You became man for us", "You became a human being for us." I am no theologian, but this one might be really problematic in that Conciliar teachings (from the early Councils) tell us that Our Lord Jesus Christ is a "Divine being who took on human nature ". Would referring to Him as a "human being" in any way deny that He is a Divine Being, or does it just affirm that He took on human nature in addition to His Divinity? Does this translation of the prayer tend toward Arianism, or is my line of thought drifting toward Monophysitism?

At any rate, the translation is bad, and obscures the fact that Our Lord took on a male human nature, all, apparently in the name of modernity and political correctness.

(2.) As to space travel, I would see no problem with adding that to the ektenia (with proper Patriarchal approval, of course).

Dn. Robert

I honestly wonder how much affect this new translation will have, at least in the U.S. My parish hasn't even attempted to implement it. That being said, the translation we use and the "new" translation are pretty similar (nearly identical). We still use "ages of ages" and "God, be propitious to me..." Still, I have a copy and thoroughly enjoy the translation, as opposed to the RDL or even the Raya/DeVinc translations. I think it could use some work, but its a translation. What translation doesn't need any work?

There is one mistranslation which I've pointed out to them many times. The received Greek text of the prayer after the epiclesis prays for 'sobriety' or 'watchfulness' of soul not 'purity' or 'cleansing' of the soul. The difference is between the vowels 'eta' and 'iota' both pronounced identically in koine Greek. The problem is that the Melkite powers-that-be determined that the English translation had to follow the Arabic 'original' (sic!). The Arabic mistranslated the Greek word as if it had an iota instead of an eta.

I remember reading somewhere that others have made the same mistranslation.

Dn. Robert

We shall keep the English in line with the "official" (not "original") Arabic text of the liturgy. When it is updated, the English will follow suit.

There are several Melkite churches that use the Greek Divine Liturgy, and in fact most do from time to time, but there are few of the faithful who understand it.

On a side note, this is tremendously interesting thread to me, but should this not be somewhere else than in the Ruthenian RDL discussion folder?

While the two matters are similar, they are not intrisicly connected, and the issues affecting one are not those affecting the other.

Quid vobis videtur?

The Litany of the Catechumens is only taken if Catechumens are present, The first set of Angel of Peace petitions are surpressed in the Litany of the Gifts both shared with the RDL.


"Brothers and sisters in Christ" is used in the 5th petition of the Ektene(Ecumenic Petitions) shared with the RDL.

Of note is the provision for lay people to offer the petitions of the Ektene and join the priest in praying the Prayer of Thanksgiving after Communion.

But the option allows for more than one petition. It is still "fuller" than the RDL.


Perhaps one "shred", but this is minor. There is liberal use of the term "mankind".In the Creed, one finds "for us men and our salvation"


Interesting. I found the provision re: the Prayer, but could not find the provision re: the Ektene. To which page are you referring?

Fuller but not the "full" Liturgy and one shred is more than "not one shred".

From Appendix 6, Page 137:

"The Ektene after the Gospel may be shortened or varied, by asking preindicated
people, lay or not, to intone the petitions. The readers should stand
in the middle of the central aisle and form two groups facing each other, with
the Deacon, if present, standing between them. The Priest or the Deacon
should end each petition by proclaiming in a solemn tone: “We pray to You,
hear us and have mercy.” The first three petitions found on page 50 must be
maintained. The final petition of the Ektene, found on page 51, must always be
maintained as well, because it contains an invocation for the people present."

This sounds like a very... roman-catholic influence to me. Am I right? I feel that the byzantine catholic churches become increasingly distant to the original spirit and text of the liturgy... That is very sad for me! It is not in the tradition of the byzantine liturgy for the lay people to intone petitions...

Interesting question, BpBasil, and one that I thought about as well.

The audiences for the two subjects are rather identical and there had been quite a bit of interest, anticipation, curiousity, etc, among the Ruthenian community as to how the Melkite and Ukrainian retranslations were going to look compared to that of the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

It does occur to me that, shortcomings aside, it's unlikely to generate anywhere near the controversy that the RDL did and would quickly fade away into the archives of the F&W forum while, here (where most posting is to existing threads and thus threads are pushed down on a much less frequent basis), it will remain more readily available for comparison, etc, for a longer period.

I'm not the principal moderator of this particular forum, so I'm going to leave the matter to be decided by someone else.

Many years,

Neil

\\Perhaps one "shred", but this is minor. There is liberal use of the term "mankind".In the Creed, one finds "for us men and our salvation" \\

"Mankind" is a perfectly proper rendering of "anthropos." Usually I've heard "Philanthropos" rendered as "Lover of mankind."

For that matter, in Greek, most of the Epistles are introduced with the word "Adelfoi," which is the plural of both "adelfos" (brother) and "adelfe" (sister).

Therefore, to begin the English epistle with "Brothers and sisters" would not be inaccurate in itself.

\\"The Ektene after the Gospel may be shortened or varied, by asking preindicated
people, lay or not, to intone the petitions. "\\

It might be tried in a few places once or twice, but will never catch on.