www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings I have no where else to ask this question. You're my last hope.

Greetings and a blessed Lent to all,

It is my desperate hope that in turning to you, I'll find a satisfactory answer to a question that has been laying heavily on my heart and mind.

This is it. I have been on every Roman Catholic message board I can think of. I have contacted priests and institutions. All to no avail.

Some have sympathized with my plight, but most have not shared my sense of important regarding the question I am about to ask. To be blunt, some think I am making a big deal out of nothing.

What am I refering to?

Two things really.

1) Jerome's translation of Genesis 3:15, where "she" instead of "he" appears.
2) The "Miraculous Medal" image depicting a serpent beneath Mary's feet.

Let me preface my question, by sharing with you the theological, more so, the mariological context from which my question derives.

Salvation or Theosis has become for me entirely Marian (and through Mary, God). I am strongly devoted to her as "The New Eve (Immaculata)", "Mother" and "Mediatrix".

Now for my question:

(Q) Since Jerome's translation differs from all other translations I have seen, is there anywhere else in Scripture that refers directly to Mary crushing Satan beneath her feet?

Why is this important to me?

Besides those things mentioned above, I want to make sure that Mary's appearance to St. Catherine at Rue Du Bac (on which the "Miraculous Medal" is based) is true and not the product of a misinterpretation of Scripture.

Many others whom I have asked have said, "The sense is the same, whether "he" or "she" is proper".

And this is where they and I depart company and the trouble begins. I couldn't disagree with the above statement more. The sense is not the same. Not to me!

In Jerome's translation and in the image engraved on the "Miraculous Medal", it is Mary, not Christ who is crushing the serpent-directly! I have further been told that Mary crushes the serpent through her Son, but that's not what Genesis 3:15, if translated as "he" or the "Miraculous Medal" image implies. If "he" is correct, then it is Christ, not Mary who is crushing the serpent directly. The sense is not the same, there is a distinction no matter how small. It's the difference between direct and indirect, between one person and another, between one image and another; And although Christ and Mary work together, it is naive (imho) to think that moving Mary from a direct position to an indirect one does not effect our understanding of Mary's role.

As a church which sings the "Akathist hymn to the Virgin Mary", can you help me?

In Christ,

Cheryl

Well I think that the quote in Genesis was using "he" as a general statement saying "humanity"/Homo Sapiens, as the source of the crushing of satan rather than any type of Hindu-type demi-god who would just come and preform some other act to defeat satan in some other way.

It's just saying salvation for man will come through a member of his own race and that's how much God loves us, to work on our level rather than a way we can't understand.

"No longer slaves, I call you friends. For a slave does not know his Master's business, but I have revealed everything to you."

I think you're too hung up on semantics to catch the underlying message.

Since I don't have the knowledge of scripture that might help answer your question, I'd just suggest my own personal 'strategy' which is praying to the Holy Spirit for the understanding which I am in need of, and the peace that comes from that. God Bless You in your search for understanding!

Cheryl,

Based on what I was taught, Jerome's use of "she" is simply a reference to the word "seed," which in Latin is a feminine noun. That would mean that even his translation did not intend for this pronoun to refer to "the woman."

Of course, in 1830, I believe it was generally accepted among Catholics that "she" was indeed a reference to "the woman."

Private revelations tend to be problematic with regard to doctrinal details like this (which may explain why theologians generally don't like private revelations very much).


We are certainly devoted to Mary in the East, going so far as to say "Most holy Mother of God, save us" and sometimes even "glory to you" (which is normally said only to God).

However, your phrase "entirely Marian" disturbs me somewhat. I know that St. Louis deMontfort was very deeply marian in his spirituality, yet I am not aware that even he would use such a phrase as "entirely Marian."

I cannot pretend to know how God is directing you, but I would strongly advise caution in a case like this, especially because it is causing you so much distress.

Wishing you all the blessings of Pascha and Bright Week!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

But it is designated as neuter:

link [en.wiktionary.org]

Also:
link [perseus.tufts.edu]

VUL Genesis 3:15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius

Deacon Anthony,

Thank you, I stand corrected on this ... must have gotten some bad information.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

In the 1611 KJV you can see a bit of difference too, as it refers to Christ as 'it'

3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
http://bibledatabase.net/html/kjv/genesis_3.html

Is "he"/"heel" plural then?


Perhaps. But I think what I'm really hung up on is Mary's appearance to St. Catherine, crushing the serpent's head. If "she" is wrong, then is the apparition false? Did Mary not appear to St. Catherine in this manner? Or is Mary's appearance crushing the serpent's head independent of Jerome's translation of Gen 3:15, and the subsequent tradition it engendered?

Thanks.

Doro,

Thank you. I have been praying and sometimes I feel okay about it, but it never stays.


Still praying

Deacon Richard,

Blessings to you as well.


May I ask why?

Yep. I will say this, from a linguistic point of view, Jerome's translation seems to be the only one not frought with questions. From what others have told me, "seed" is plural, which would make "it" plural, so a better translation might be "they" as in "they will crush your head." Fine, but here is where it starts to get hairy; "heel" is masculine (I don't know if that carries with it any significants,, but if it does, then the proceeding sentence should read, "...while you strike at his heel" snd if "his/heel" is singular, then we have a problem).

I will put emnity between you and the woman
between your seed (plural) and her seed (plural)
They (plural) will strike your head
while you strike at his (singular) heel (masculine).

(To be consistent, it should say, "you will strike at their heels".)

The word seed, semen, is grammatically singular. Plural would be semina. It (semen) is the same word used when God tells Abram that all nations will be blessed in his seed. In the NT, St. Paul makes the argument that this refers to Christ because the word seed is singular, referring to one person (ie the Messiah).
Ipsa can be feminine singular or neuter plural; however, there is no neuter plural noun to serve as the antecedent. There is a feminine singular noun, mulier (woman). It is the only plausible antecedent for ipsa from a strictly grammatical perspective.
I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but it would be interesting to see how this passage reads in those languages.
Jerome's translation (if ipsa is in fact what he used rather than ipsum) would translate as "she will crush your head." However, I believe this could only be understood to mean that The BVM defeats Satan through her Son.
Personally, I would give preference to the Hebrew or Septuagint reading if they differ from Jerome on this matter.

Well, in addition to prayer, it's good if you have a friend to talk to about this.....someone who is a good listener and will let you bounce your thoughts off them. You can just talk about all the ideas that people have contributed on this forum. As simple as it sounds, I have seen many times how this helps people to resolve some issue that has been on their mind. I'm hoping that before long you'll be feeling really okay about your question.

I looked at the Bible on newadvent.com. It has the Greek, English, and Latin in parallel. The pronoun that Jerome translates ipsa is aftos in Greek. According to an online Greek-English dictionary, this word is masculine. Feminine would be afti.
Considering that the Septuagint predates the Vulgate by 500 or so years, I would be inclined to give preference to the Greek text.

Gregg

At best, the apparition referred to is a private revelation, upon which it is illegitimate to base doctrine. The Church is always cautious about private revelations.

Fr. Serge