www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall becoming Orthodox

I wish to become an Eastern Orthodox. My wife is a Roman Catholic and my father was a Byzantine Catholic. I have bounced from one church to another, mostly Protestant. I can no longer deny what I need to do. Are there any churches that will assist you in this? I know this is a delicate topic, but I cannot deny my conscience any more. I have been church jumping because I know I do not believe in the Western approach and beliefs concerning traditional and apostolic Christianity. I believe that the Pope is the "first among equals" only; I believe in the original Creed before the Filoque; I do not have a belief in Purgagory; what can I do? Please, some good advice. I have been talked out of doing what I needed and wanted to do by most of the Body of Christ. Are there any churches that allow intercommunion in this situation?

Walter

Walter,

First of all, I think if it were that straightforward, you wouldn't be here asking for advice.

Not sure what you mean here, since any Orthodox church would be expected to assist if you're interested in converting, and I would assume there's one or more that you've been attending somewhat regularly.

Can you be more specific?

That's interesting, because most Orthodox believe he was the first among equals until he rejected Orthodoxy and became a heretic.

Which is close to, if not the same as, what many Eastern Catholics believe.

You're not likely to find a canonical Orthodox Church outside the Middle East that would allow intercommunion.

Does your wife want to become an Eastern Orthodox as well? I've always felt that it's the best case scenerio when a married couple worships together. God bless you in your search. (PS I truly love the Byzantine Catholic faith, especially the older I get.)

I would encourage you to look at books by Jim Likoudis and "The Russian Church and the Papacy" by Vladimir Soloviev.

I would advise you to stay away from both.

I'll second that as well.

In this situation, I'd recommend talking to a priest or two in your area. If your current pastor is a Catholic priest, talk to him about your concerns. My experience is that they usually are very understanding and respectful of the conscience of people who travel East. (In re-reading your message, I understand that you are actually Protestant. So, a Catholic priest may not be helpful to you unless you know one through your wife's parish.) Also, talk with a priest at one of the Orthodox parishes in your area. I know Fr. Andrew Barakos at Assumption Greek Orthodox in Scottsdale (he actually received me into the Church many years ago), and he would be a very good person to talk with about your situation. I think you should get the answers you need and some helpful advice from the local clergy. I've also sent you a PM. Blessings on your spiritual journey!

Oh my! Soloviev's teachings have been condemned as heretical, and Likoudis is an excellent "Dummies Guide to Polemics". Stay clear of both of them. The only way to look at these books is to look at them going up in flames!

Alexandr

Stuart and Alexandr are among those posters here with whom I frequently disagree--and often quite vehemently. However, on their advice to avoid Likoudis and Soloviev, I'm in agreement.

Ryan

Hi Walter,

Christos Voskrese!

I am not anywhere near as learned as the people above who have already posted - especially in matters of the Church. What I would suggest however is this: you have received some wonderful advice here - embrace it. Whatever you do, do it in liaison with your current Pastor, and under the mentoring of a new clergyman from your potential new Church. It would be essential that you speak with your wife about what you are doing, and why. If she isn't joining you, explain why you feel you must undertake this journey. Share your joy in your faith with her.

If your wife remains a RC (I assume this is possible as she is RC and you are from what I sense; currently Protestant), perhaps finding an Eastern Church within the Catholic family (BC) could be benefitial. In all senses you would be 'Orthodox' but still a member of the same 'Church' as your spouse - that may make her adjustment easier. A married couple who share a religion (albeit different rites) is nothing too challening However couples in different Churches often experience added problems (though, many on here would prove otherwise I am sure - and I would be glad to see it so!).

Finding apotential Church would surround the right Priest more than denomination. Someone who would welcome assisting you in understanding the process, rather than just 'scoring a new convert' is what you are after - and the people on here would be well-versed in recommending the appropriate person

I wish you luck in your journey - whichever way it may go. Also remember this: Catholic or Orthodox, we are at the end of the day, the same Church: the Church of Christ.

Good luck!

Misha

Why all of this opposition to Likoudis? His stuff is excellent. He is a convert from the Orthodox Church. And secondly, Soloviev's philosophical works were condemned as heretical by the Orthodox Church. "The Russian Church and the Papacy" is more of a historical work though so his ideas about "Sophia" and all that do not come into play in that work.

I am quite saddened by the advice given to this individual being as this is a Byzantine Catholic forum. Do you think St. Josaphat, Blessed Leonid Feodorov, Blessed Nicholas Charnetsky would give the same advice to this individual? I mean it is not like they are living in an Orthodox country totally isolated from the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic your advice to this person should be unequivocally- "Go to a Byzantine Catholic Church!"

Look at this quote from Lumen Gentium:

"Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." (Lumen Gentium, 14)

The following is a Dogmatic statement:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

I am really kind of disappointed when people give this advice as I have several Ukrainian friends and have heard stories of how people suffered much during Communism to maintain union with Rome. If they maintained union with Rome in an oppressive regime
how can we just sit back and advise someone in a free society to just go check out the Orthodox Church as if there were no difference?

I believe Orthodox must come into union with Rome, preserving their liturgical and theological heritage as envisioned by Blessed Leonid Feodorov. Am I alone in this belief here?

Tradycja:

Chrsit is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

That's something our Orthodox brethren are in a much better position to answer because he is one of the people their Church has judged. Let's hear them out. As for Soloviev, the Orthodox Church, in my experience, does not split hairs when one is condemned as a heretic. I had a volume by a Greek priest who wrote a work describing living out the Orthodox faith in the Greek tradition only to be told that once he was deposed, all his works were now condemned so as not to confuse the faithful.



No, this is not a Byzantine Catholic forum. Maybe you didn't read the forum's position documents when you asked to be admited as a member, but may I suggest that you read the sticky thread on the Town Hall section above describing who we are. This forum has grown into an Eastern Christian forum and has members of all the Eastern Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, as well as many representatives from the Western Churches, both Catholic and Protestant. We are all here learning about the Christian East, but we are not exclusively an Eastern Catholic or Byzantine Catholic forum.



You may believe this, but many Orthodox members do not believe it at all. In fact, you may browse this forum and find Orthodox visions of what communion will eventually look like and find them really disturbing to you. But the reality of this forum is that we embrace each other without prejudgment and really listen to each other without bringing our own positions to funnel what they say or our own prisms to change their vision.

One Orthodox poster here sees the Papacy as Catholics know it completely dismantled before communion can be restored. His vision, radically different from my own as a Latin Catholic, was something to ponder. His vision sees a communion of national Churches akin to the Orthodox Church wherein Rome would not have any jurisdiction outside its own diocese. It's still something I'm pondering because it is an honest alternative to what prevails in Catholic circles.

You may not be comfortable here if this sounds like something that cuts across your belief system. Please don't bring up all the quotes from various Roman documents. We are all very well familiar with them here. You might be surprised to learn tht many of our Eastern Catholic brethren have positions closer to the Orthodox Church than to the Latin Church's, particularly the Melkites.

In Christ,

Bob
Moderator

I suspect that Cardinal Huzar of Ukraine would be in agreement with Theophan's sentiments as well.

[quote=theophan]
That's something our Orthodox brethren are in a much better position to answer because he is one of the people their Church has judged. Let's hear them out. As for Soloviev, the Orthodox Church, in my experience, does not split hairs when one is condemned as a heretic. I had a volume by a Greek priest who wrote a work describing living out the Orthodox faith in the Greek tradition only to be told that once he was deposed, all his works were now condemned so as not to confuse the faithful.

[b]No, this is not a Byzantine Catholic forum.[/b] Maybe you didn't read the forum's position documents when you asked to be admited as a member, but may I suggest that you read the sticky thread on the Town Hall section above describing who we are. This forum has grown into an Eastern Christian forum and has members of all the Eastern Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, as well as many representatives from the Western Churches, both Catholic and Protestant. We are all here learning about the Christian East, but we are not exclusively an Eastern Catholic or Byzantine Catholic forum.

[quote]I believe Orthodox must come into union with Rome . . . [/quote]

You may believe this, but many Orthodox members do not believe it at all. In fact, you may browse this forum and find Orthodox visions of what communion will eventually look like and find them really disturbing to you. But the reality of this forum is that we embrace each other without prejudgment and really listen to each other without bringing our own positions to funnel what they say or our own prisms to change their vision.

One Orthodox poster here sees the Papacy as Catholics know it completely dismantled before communion can be restored. His vision, radically different from my own as a Latin Catholic, was something to ponder. His vision sees a communion of national Churches akin to the Orthodox Church wherein Rome would not have any jurisdiction outside its own diocese. It's still something I'm pondering because it is an honest alternative to what prevails in Catholic circles.

You may not be comfortable here if this sounds like something that cuts across your belief system. Please don't bring up all the quotes from various Roman documents. We are all very well familiar with them here. You might be surprised to learn tht many of our Eastern Catholic brethren have positions closer to the Orthodox Church than to the Latin Church's, particularly the Melkites.
[/quote]

That is one of the problems in the Orthodox Church though is that they are not "One". What one particular national Church condemns as heresy another one might not have a problem with. Hence the disagreement over whether the "uncreated energies" are Dogma or not and the disagreements between the SCOBA Orthodox and the Old Calendrists.

I apologize, I did misunderstand the scope of the forum, I thought it was primarily Ruthenian Catholic but allowed others to participate as well. I stand corrected.

Additionally, Lumen Gentium is not a "Roman Document", it is part of the Vatican Council II, which was an Ecumenical Council that binds the whole Church. Additionally, Pope Boniface XVIII's statement binds the Universal Church not just the Latin Church.

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. In mine, Likoudis' work is tendentious and polemical, his research is shoddy, and he ignores inconvenient facts from Church history. And, while everyone is entitled to his own opinion, as Churchill said, nobody is entitled to his own facts.


I'm glad you put it in those terms. I carefully distinguish between people who convert to something, and people who convert from something. The latter frequently feel the need to justify their change of affiliation by denigrating their former confession. On the other hand, converts to something do not feel as defensive and often find much that is good about their previous home.


Unam Sanctum has no force of law, contrary to whatever anyone ever told you. Even in Boniface's own day, the Bull (an apposite word in this case) was rejected by the majority of bishops, most of the theologians at the great universities, and by every prince and king in Christendom. In short, Boniface had a rather exalted sense of himself, but nobody paid him the least attention, because he was so far outside the consensus fidei.


Let's hope so.