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Booth,

By this what are you suggesting? That they can tune into Mother Angelica, using their satellite dishes? Just because information is available doesn't mean that it has come to their attention or that they understand it as representing religious truth.

You paint a picture of a God Who is unyielding in His demands. I'd like to believe that my God is gentler, kinder, more merciful than that.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

I think I prefer this vision of God's outlook toward those not united with the Church to that of Eugene IV.

Many years,

Neil

Not only that, but even when a person has "access" to the truth, how much are they influenced by social pressure and other things.
Are they truly then free in their rejection of the truth, thus meriting punishment?
It is not as simple as some people make it out to be.
Stephanos I

Marduk,

So we who disagree that Muslims pray to the same god are heretics?

The Ebionites and Marcionites were condemned for many things. For instance, Marcion taught that the "god" of the Old Testament was not the Supreme God. That is not what I said at all. I *never* posited that there are two gods.

I'm pretty certain they weren't condemned as heretics for denying that Muslims worshipped the same God as Christians.

If Muslims worship a "different god" than Catholics and Orthodox what of the god of, say, the Protestants? Calvinists believe that God predestines most souls to hell and that they can do nothing about it. So do Calvinists worship a different god? Or is it not more accurate to say they misunderstand the nature of the true God?
If the God one worships is the God who made heaven and earth, the God who revealed Himself to Abraham, and so on, then He is the true God, however fragmented one's understanding of Him may be...

I don't paint a picture of anything; I just believe solemnly defined magisterial truths. The quote from Pope Eugene IV is a matter of faith and morals. You have to believe it to call yourself Catholic. When "the most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches" something, you must give full submission of the will. It's an infallible teaching.

Those quotes you gave me from the CCC are accurate, but slippery. If the hierarchy want to accept "can be saved" and "it may be supposed" as good enough, then that's what they are going to do, and it's God place to judge what they did with their authority.

All statements of the CCC are not created equal; some are extraordinary Magisterium, some are ordinary Magisterium, and some are simply prudential or governmental. To be tediously repetitious, that quote carving out exceptions doesn't have the authority of the pontiff's previous infallible solemn pronouncement. And he's not the only one to declare it; there are other infallible statements on the topic if you'd like me to look them up.

I am not willing to wager my salvation on soft statements to non-Catholics. If I don't tell the truth on the subject, God will hold me accountable for it.

And I'd like to believe that my God is kinder and gentler, too, and maybe He is, but it isn't worth the gamble. For every story in the Bible about God's mercy, there are two or three about His justice. Right in the divine liturgy they make reference to needing "a good defense at the awesome tribunal of Christ." And the Second Coming and Judgement Day are certainly not foretold in Scripture to be pleasant outpourings of God's mercy.

So, in sum, I think the Vatican (but maybe not the Moscow Patriarchate, in this case) is endangering the final well-being of souls with its soft-handedness.

So Booth, if you think God's essential nature is judgement and not mercy maybe it's YOU who do not worship the True God!

Dear Booth and others,

You keep quoting Pope Eugene with fervor, but forget that if taken without the mitigating factor of invincible ignorance, then the statement condemns we Orthodox as well. Either you must admit that EVERYONE outside of the VISIBLE boundaries of the Catholic Church cannot possibly be saved (Muslims, Jews, Orthodox, Protestants, etc.), or you must stop quoting Pope Eugene in the manner you have been utilizing him.

Dear Brother Cizinec,

It is not me who regards such a belief a heresy, but the Fathers of the Church. I am only following Sacred Tradition. The Jews believe that the God they worship is the God of the Old Testament; the Muslims believe that the God they worship is the God of the Pentateuch. Is this not the same God that we worship in the New Testament? Yes it is! However, as others have consistently stated, their PERCEPTION of God is lacking or is wrong.

Even St. Paul understood that the "unknown God" of the Greeks was one and the same God that he himself worshipped! How is that possible? In fact, many ancient peoples believed in a Supreme Being, over and above all their other gods. Paul recognized this and accepted the fact that where a Supreme Being is worshipped, then it is one and the same God who is worshipped by all. Note that, as St. Paul stated, and as many others here have stated, most notably the venerable administrator, Iconophile, and Father Stephanos, the only difference was the manner in which God was "KNOWN" to the people who worshipped Him.

Blessings,
Marduk

Amen; well said as usual, Marduk. In fact the One God was not unknown to the ancients. Indeed, early missionaries found knowledge of Him among very primitive peoples. Actually, the more "primitive" the purer the concept. With the rise of agriculture the focus became fertility and the spirits of the natural world, and the One God became more and more forgotten. Even among the primitive folks the One God was seen as rather removed from everyday commerce and the gods of the hunt or of natural forces were the ones with whom one was in everyday commerce, but the knowledge of this transcendent Creator remained.
peace, Daniel

Did you even read my arguments through this thread, or are you trying to set up a straw man?

The protestants, with some minor exceptions, worship the triune God, as we do.


Marduk said,

I inquired,

You responded,

Perhaps you can show precisely where in the tradition I am condemned as a heretic for claiming Muslims don't worship the True God.

I don't disagree that it is a matter for debate. I have my opinion and you have yours. But you've made it a requirement to believe as you or be condemned for a heresy.

I remember a lovely thread here called "By Whose Authority?" It was aimed at Orthodox discussions. I wonder, mardukum, by whose authority do *you* speak? Let's see that authority so we can judge for ourselves.

Yesterday's Los Angeles Times started a series about Muslim's living in Las Vegas and their problems.

Interesting graph & statement from a clerical" We worship the same God as the Jews & Christians".

Need to check their web site.

james

Dear brother Cizinec

This is getting off the topic, but I will respond, though not at length (at this time). God laid down certain laws and beliefs to be followed. Jesus himself said that it is not He Who will judge, but it is our own words and thoughts that will condemn us.

So I don't think I have called you a heretic personally by simply offering you the facts.

Now, you did request that I offer you these Fathers to which I am referring so that we may judge for ourselves. I will do so (to be honest, within two weeks, as I am currently preoccupied with extra-internet matters). Offhand, I can think of St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. Clement of Alexandria, and St. Basil the Great. I will give detailed quotes (as noted, don't expect it until about two weeks from now).

For now, I did offer you a biblical rationale per St. Paul's situation with the Athenians for what I and others here believe, to which I request that you respond.

Blessings,
Marduk

" Did you even read my arguments through this thread, or are you trying to set up a straw man?"

No, no straw man intended. I am simply extending your own argument: Protestant concepts about the attributes of God are flawed to varying degrees. One could argue that a God who is intent on damning most of his human creatures to hell is not the "true God". However, the nature of God as described by most Protestants is correct: that He is One, that He exists uncreated and made all things, that He is Judge, etc. Therefore they do worship the One God, however imperfectly understood. The Muslims do not know that God is triune; neither do the Jews, but that does not mean that they worship some other god, as do the Mormans, for example, as the nature of the god the book of Mormon professes- having a physical body, being an evolved man, etc- is not the nature of the One God.

I did not call anyone a heretic; however if one insists that the Muslims do not worship the true God one is not thinking with the Church, clearly.

Well, I'm not sure whose argument you're extending, but it's not mine. Please revisit my argument.

One could, but I certainly did not.

That the Muslim concept of Allah is a more similar facsimile of the True God than the Mormon god is fine. One false god is closer than another, perhaps leading them closer to the True God.

Dear Mardukm,

I don't know if this is correct or not (so please don't bite my head off anyone--I am open to being corrected)--

I once read a book written by an Evangelical Christian, that said that around the rock of Mecca the pagan peoples who are now Muslim, worshipped many dieties.

I don't remember the specifics, but somewhere along the line they decided that there was only one God and they would worship him. 'Allah' was chosen from the many dieties...(kind of like if the ancient Greeks decided to discard the eleven gods of Olympus and worship only one-- 'Zeus'.)

Thus, the author of the book contends, 'Allah' is NOT the one Judeo-Christian God, but actually a pagan diety, aka: a demon.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Sister Alice,

I have heard of that book as well. And his arguments are very compelling. However, the conversion of a polytheistic people to a monotheistic people is no different from what occurred with the Jews. So it matters not whether the Muslims were originally a polytheistic people. Many converts to Christianity in the early Church were polytheists, so that fact alone does not prove anything.

The fact is that at some point in history, God revealed himself to the Semitic peoples, which includes both Jews and Arabs. Along the way, as the races diverged, different conceptions of the same God arose. So it is the same God, the same one, Supreme Being. It is little wonder that Christians and Jews have ALWAYS been regarded by Muslims as "People of the Book." Muslims have ALWAYS regarded themselves as sharing a common monotheistic patrimony with Christians and Jews. The idea that Muslims believe in the same God as the God of Christians and Jews has been a mainstay of Islam since its inception - it is NOT a belief that sprouted since 9/11 planted by false ecumenists to try to make Islam more palatable to Western society. This is simple historical fact.

The point St. Paul seems to be making in stating that the unknown god that the Greeks worshipped was the very same God that he himself worshipped was to show that a belief in one Supreme Being is tantamount to a belief in the same God.

Certainly, the Allah of Islam has more in common with our God than the "unknown god" of the Greeks. If St. Paul himself can state, inspired by the Spirit no less, that the unknown god of the Greeks was the same God that he worshipped, it can easily be said of the God that Muslims and Jews worship.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. If I sound harsh to such as yourself, I must be doing something wrong. Please forgive me.