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First of all, there is even a difference between the God of Allah and the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who has perused the Koran will recognize that. Theoretically, sure, there is a historical claim to be descended from Ishmael. The praxis and developed faith are another thing.

Secondly, Lumen Gentium does not, explicitly or implicitly, equate the Triune God to Allah. To say so is itself bordering on heresy.

Lumen Gentium only states what is rational, i.e. salvation is possible because of the mercy of God for all mankind.

Nowhere is there a theological equality made between the God of Islam and the Triune God. Such a thing would be heresy and in opposition to several of the Church Councils.

As we have seen with the gatherings at Assisi, this can be done without any sense of sharing faith in the same Triune God.

We are not talking about salvation, Admin. You seem to have missed the point. We are talking about the essence of the faith in a Triune God, which is diametrically different from that notion of God professed by Islam. It's really fairly simple.

Our Constantinopolitan tradition is replete with statements of faith liturgically in the Triune God, in the spirit of lex credendi, lex orandi . One will simply not see any instances where the God of the Koran is likened to the Triune God in this liturgical corpus.

Actually, if one cares to look deeper into the Canons to the Holy Trinity for the Sunday Midnight Office from the Oktoechos (and a few in the Canons to the Theotokos from Small Compline) one will find specific repudiations of that notion of equality of God between Islam and orthodox Christianity.

Being these are of the venerable liturgical tradition of my Church, I certainly hold to them.

Does that mean I hate Muslims? Absolutely not, and I count several as good friends. I do not, however, share the same faith as they do, which both they and I recognize and respect for each other. I do daily pray for their salvation, as well as my own.

Talmudic scholars who read Rashi and Maimonides know of an ancient tradition in Judaism that there are three persons of YHWH. They say it is a mystery and do not identify it obviously as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Triune G-d concept pre-dates Christianity and is embedded in the Torah (Hebrew for "instruction") of Judaism. Conservative and Reform Jews are not congizant of this tradition and Orthodox Jews will not discuss it or reveal it to "goyim." The authentic and faithful Jews who follow all 711 commandments of the Torah know of the three persons of the one G-d.

Baruch Ha-Shem
Viva Cristo Rey
Christos Anesti

Iconophile,

The Jews who refused Christ were indeed idolaters. They rejected Christ for their traditionalism. They failed to see the One True God through their faith in their traditions and upheld their traditionalism (the tradition given by God) over what that tradition was to lead them to, Christ and salvation. They worshipped the created over the creator.

This is a threat to all of us, especially those practicing Eastern Christianity.

Concerning Islam, I don't know what Rome's position is, but mine is firm. A belief in �Abraham� is not primary over the belief in Christ.

Does their false god bear some resemblance to the True God and can this lead them to the True Faith? Certainly, but they are deceived into worshipping a false god.

The Jews who rejected Yehoshua of Natzramin followed a false tradition or interpretation. The Rebbe Gamaliel, who trained St.Paul of Tarsus, became a Christian. The problem was their hearts were not open to the fullfillment of the Torah coming from Galilee, rather than from Judea. They were in the words of St.John the Baptist, "A brood of vipers."

No. The Koran only shows that the Muslims have a distorted understanding of the God whom we know as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This does not mean that the Muslims worship a false God. They simply do not know Him.

Lumen Gentium Paragraph 16 (emphasis added): In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

I suppose the Holy Father could revise the document to make clear that the �one and merciful God� they worship �along with us� is the Trinity.

Dear Booth,

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I was away the past few days.

I referenced you in my post because you quoted one paragraph (#841) from the catechism without taking into consideration the remaining statements concerning non-Christian religions which includes Islam. If you read the entire section it is not so "vague and confusing".

The Administrator in his posts has already addressed the rest of the issue better than I could.

Bill

Admin, such a clarification will not be made, precisely because it is not the same God.

My point with Assisi stands. We have seen from those meetings it is certainly possible to "adore the one God" next to people who feel they are adoring their one God, and at the same time profess nowhere near the same understanding or faith in a similar one God. Mine is ever existing in three persons. The Allah of the Koran simply is not the same.

Lumen Gentium is in no way equating theologically the God of Islam with the Triune God, nor trying to describe who or what their Allah is. Again, that would be outright heresy.

Neither does it say "the one God" is the same for Christian and Muslim, because it simply is not. This is perhaps a hopeful implicit statement of eventual unity, which will only come with the enlightenment of all by the Most Holy Trinity.

Were it a statement of equality of Allah to my Triune God, which the Moslem would completely reject, this would be in direct conflict to most of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. We can't simply make them have our God with our words.

Yes. The Koran is the ultimate basis of faith of Islam. That is a pretty well known and basic tenet of Islam. The Allah of the Koran is neither that of the Old Testment, nor especially that of my Triune God.

The Koran to the Muslim is neither distorted nor misunderstood. I would take grave offense at your statement were I a Muslim, presuming that I do not understand the basis of my faith nor the identity of my God.

That to me is far more presumptious than me agreeing to disagree with a Muslim about the nature of my God compared to his Allah. "Distorted understanding" ??? I will not presume to project an understanding of my own God on his, as they are simply not the same. To do so is folly.

The Allah of the Koran is neither that of the Old Testament nor that of the Triune God I worship. That can be seen by even the most elementary analysis of the Koran. And without the Koran, there simply is no Islam.

Again, it is quite simple, the Allah of the Koran is not the Triune God of Christianity, all misunderstandings and distortions aside. And the Allah of the Koran is indeed that of the Muslim, again all misunderstandings and distortions aside.

The Koran was written in a time and culture which had access to the teachings of Christ. The distortion to me, rather, is trying to make the Allah of the Koran some kind of misunderstanding somehow equivalent to my Triune God.

I accept that when my Muslim friend's statement of faith, i.e. the Koran which he adheres to, describes a God diametricaly different than mine, which it does, then it is indeed not my God nor my faith which is described in his statement of faith [i.e. the Koran]. We accept the differences, respect them, and discuss them in a gentlemanly way, but at the end of the day we do not share the same faith nor profess the same God.

It has been mentioned that one cannot read part of the CCC and take it out of context. Likewise sections 252 on clearly explain the nature of God as hypostatic in three Persons. After section 256 it even includes the glorious words of St. Gregory the Theologian about the persons of the Trinity.

This simply cannot be reconciled with the Allah of the Koran. Were it reconcilable, surely it would have been stated as such in the basic statements of Trinitarian faith of these sections.

On a tangent, be reminded there are questions from several eminent Eastern Catholic theologians regarding whether the CCC has force of promulgation, or is truly appropriate for Eastern Catholics. That is for another discussion entirely.

"Having sharpened his sword, the iniquitous and false Moslem takes counsel against us; but with the power of the Cross and thy supplications, O Virgin Theotokos, thou arms thy servants against him; wherefore we proclaim thy glory" Ode IX from the Canon to the Theotokos from Tone IV, Saturday Night Small Compline

Honest and humble (if it can be taken as such) question: Isn't the attitude that the God of the the Jews and Muslims is not the same God as the God of Christians a heresy?

Isn't this the heresy of the Ebionites? Isn't this the heresy of Marcion? Isn't this the grave error of the many Protestants today who wish to bifurcate the value of the Old Testament from the New Testament?

I find, based on a study of the early Fathers that I must agree with both the Administrator and with Diak. The Jews and Muslims indeed worship a different God than the Christians; but the difference is only subjective. Where there is belief in one God, and a God who revealed Himself to the ancient race from which both Jews and Muslims have descended, then there is OBJECTIVELY belief in the same God. However, the SUBJECTIVE perception of the Jews and Muslims about God is wrong, since they do not accept the FULL revelation of God in Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
Marduk

I only now had a chance to look up Nostra Aetate, the Vatican II Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions. I offer the following excerpt:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Dear Marduk,

Well, if one really wanted to push this further, the Christian East has a different understanding of the Trinity itself from that of the West . . .

Fr. Karl Jungmann, the Catholic liturgist, once wrote rather disparagingly of the way the Eastern liturgies directly worship the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, rather than "the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit."

The East emphasizes the "social conception" of God in terms of the Three Divine Persons at once.

Some have said that the more rationalistic West emphasizes One or another Persons to underscore the Unity of God - because the notion of One God can be arrived at through reason.

The East reverences mysticism based on revelation and so worships the entire Trinity at once.

The Jewish faith sees the "Word and the Spirit" as emanations of God the Father.

There have been Muslim philosophers who have posited that the most perfect form of union between God and mankind would have to be . . . Divine Incarnation.

Al-Hallaj was a Muslim who was crucified for believing that "man was an incarnation of God."

Alex

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, The Man has me working a lot of overtime.

I guess we'll never agree on this point. I base my belief in actually trusting that Mohammed had some interaction with angels - fallen ones, that is. Anything as nefarious as Islam could have nothing other than a diabolical source. So, if the Koran, as Moe said, was given to him by an angel, I'm guessing it was Asmodeus or Beelzebub. And whatever god would be preached by such powers is not our God.

Islam doesn't just disagree on the Filioque, the role of Mary, or "graven images." Denial of the Trinity (the very nature of God) is enough, but denying Christ's divinity is RIGHT THERE denying our God. To deny one of the Three Persons is God is to deny our God in a very direct manner.

I know you love my examples, but if I shunned the Father and the Son, but continued to worship the Holy Spirit as the one, true, undivided God, would I still be worshipping the God of Catholicism?

[Preconciliar mentality] True, Jews are not idolaters, but that doesn't mean the Old Covenant, which was rent in two, can get them to Heaven. Should we not convert them with loving zeal? [/Preconciliar mentality]

And how about that Russian Patriarch?

This is very sad politicking with heretics. Thankfully, it's not Extraordinary Magisterium. I forget which pontiff of happy memory referred to the "darkness of Islamism," but I think he was closer to the truth.

I wonder what the Russian Patriarch thinks?

Not if one denies in ignorance. Someone (think Joe or Janet from Somewhere, USA) who has never heard the Gospel and comes to believe in Christ but does not immediately understand the Trinity is not �RIGHT THERE� denying our God. We would consider him to be uneducated and do all in our power to educate him properly.

Likewise, when the Muslims deny Trinity they do so out of ignorance. They do not do by understanding Trinity and then rejecting Trinity. This does not mean that they worship a false God. It means that they worship a God they do not understand. It is for us to lead them to a proper understanding of Trinity so that they may be saved. The Church is clear about this.

The Church clearly teaches that we are to bring all to Christ. Acknowledging that the Jews believe in the same God we do, in a God that they do not fully understand and need to understand, does not relieve us of the obligation to witness Christ to all people at all times.

Very well put administrator.
In the Latin Church we speak of one being in inculpable and invincible ignorance. They act in good faith because they are not capable of understanding and therefore can be saved according to the living out of their conscience.
That being said, however they are saved we as Christians know that it is through Christ,even if they arent aware of it.
Stephanos I

I guess we've reached some agreement here. The principles are sound, but are in the modern era stretched to frightening lengths. Muslims have access to the truth. We aren't talking about the Ancients, or early Vikings, or some tribe we still haven't found in Africa. They may be prejudiced against it by circumstance or education, just as Joe USA is, but with the natural law imprinted on their hearts and free will, they are still culpable for their rejection.

I agree that catechumans coming to understand would likely be given a pass. But they are already subjugated in their will to the Barque of Peter, and would accept whatever their ignorance clouds.

From Pope Eugene IV:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)"

It's a frightening, horrifying, mind-rending thought - most people don't make this standard and thus don't go to Heaven - but there it is, solemnly and thereby infallibly defined by the pontiff. Can we find room for Muslims in that statement?