www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology homily at the end of the liturgy

Dear all, I am new to the forum, so please correct me and guide me to the correct forum if this topic has already been discussed. In the Greek Orthodox church I attend, and many others, the priest holds the homily to the end of the liturgy to make sure that the people who come habitually late, and there are many, can hear it. This bothers me on two points:
1) the homily properly belongs in the liturgy of the Word and commentary on the scripture proclaimed would also offer more continuity to the congregation if it came immediately after.
2) holding the homily until after the liturgy give tacit approval to everyone that showing up late is perfectly fine.
Does this practice occur in Byzantine Catholic liturgies? What is your opinion of the practice? I believe the priests most likely defend its use by reasoning that for economy, or pastoral reasons, the priest can do what he wants in this regard.
Thanks.

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Welcome to the forum. That said, what you describe was the practice at the Greek Orthodox cathedral in Pittsburgh when I attended there many years ago.

When in Rome . . . when in Constantinople . . .

Bob

Christos anesti! Alithos anesti!
Bob, your answer is a pragmatic one, and certainly, since I am not the priest, I do not dispute him about it. I guess I am looking for a theological and/or historical justification for the practice. Is this something that St. John Chrysostom as patriarch or Constantinople would have done? I kind of doubt it, from the little I know of the man. Is this an American accommodation? Or is this practiced in Greece as well? I've heard from folks of the Antiochian church that it is not done in their churches. The OCA churches I have been to do not hold it until the end, although I believe the Russian cathedral did.

From my years as a Roman Catholic, it was never done. I am interested to learn if the Byzantine Catholics ever make that accommodation. Thanks.

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

From the description of the placement of the sermon in The Orthodox Church, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, one might think that St. John saved his sermons until after the DL at which point it is reported he could preach for up to three hours. If that is true, it would seriously disrupt the flow of the DL.

One more thing--as you experience the Christian East, leave behind all Latin assumptions and practices. Experience and listen and learn. The Christian East experiences the Mystery of God coming among us in a very different way than anything you have experienced heretofore. And sit back and remember that these good people have matured in the life of the spirit WITHOUT reference to the Latin Church for a millenium. We are not the yardstick that many Latins have been taught to think we are.

Second thing--the placement of the sermon in the Latin Liturgy may very well have something to do with a medieval service called "Prone," placed in the middle of the Liturgy where the Epistle and Gospel were read in the vernacular, a sermon was preached and popular hymns were sung in the vernacular. Quite different from the East where the language was known to the average person in church and the melodies were sung by the congregation from memory.

BOB

All the liturgical texts have the homily immediately after the Apostol and Alleluia. It is the logical place for it to be, since it represents the culmination of the Liturgy of the Word. It is common for the homily to be placed after the Liturgy, but that is an abuse, albeit one hallowed by custom. Most Orthodox liturgists insist the homily should be in the middle of the Liturgy (and Chrysostom's were there--he complains that people are leaving after he's done, and not staying for Communion). Why it moved to the end, I don't know--it may have to do with the neglected state of homiletics during the Turkokratia.

Dear Stavroula,

Welcome to the forum! I am also Greek Orthodox. To answer your question, in Greece, the sermons are generally in the middle of the Liturgy--

As you have seen, there is no 'rule' for that and is up to the individual priest here...

This is from St. Barbara Greek Orthodox Church in California:


Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Alice

The catechumens were expected to attend the liturgy of the Word and to receive instruction. They were dismissed following the homily since they had not yet been formally given the Creed.

The recitation of the Creed marked the beginning of the liturgy of the faithful.

After the Homily would come the Litany of Supplication and the Litany of the Catechumens. The Catechumens would then be blessed, and dismissed "All catechumens depart, all catechumens depart! Let no catechumen remain!", and then the door of the nave would be shut just prior to recitation of the Creed: "The doors, the doors! In wisdom let us profess our faith".

Of course, over time the flow of adult catechumens became a trickle and then dried up altogether, and this is probably when some bright light decided to move the homily to the end of the Liturgy.

I personally don't see how moving the homily to the end as means of pandering to the habitually late could possibly be defended. If there is another reason, I may not have a problem with it. Early is on-time; On-time is late; And late is unacceptable.

Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine:)

Not a new issue either, perhaps. In their Festal Menaion (p. 543, footnote 1), Mother Mary and (then Archimandrite) Kallistos suggested that the reason for the Violakis typikon's move of the Gospel at Matins from the middle of the service, to just before the ninth ode of the Canon, may have been done to accomodate late-comers.

In Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

in Orthodoxy, no matter how late you come, you're early, and no matter how early you come, you're late.

When I've been in America, I noticed that at Orthodox parishes which were majority converts from Protestant churches, most arrived before the service began, and by the time the service started, everyone had reverenced the icons, placed candles, and taken their places in the nave. All stayed until the end and everyone took communion. It was impressive because I've never seen this in Europe. In our churches people come and go throughout the service and at any given time other than maybe the great entrance, one will see people up front reverencing icons and lighting candles. There just seems to be a different approach in the "old world". Some say it is laziness but I think it has also to do with the general feeling we have of being in the house of Our Father rather than that of a tyrant. It's not really polite to show up at your father's house late, but he's happy you came nonetheless and overlooks the infraction. At least this is how one Greek priest explained to me the different approaches.

A lot of us converts go early and stay to the end because, for us, everything is new, exciting and wonderful. We are, like the ambassadors of St. Vladimir of Kyiv, overwhelmed by the beauty and splendor of the Liturgy, and we feel both honored and humbled to be allowed to participate in it. I go to the services not because God is a tyrant to be feared but because He is a Father whom I love, and I cherish every moment I am allowed in his house. There may be some converts from Protestantism (I myself was an unobservant Jew) who behave for the reasons you ascribe, but I think they are very much in the minority.

I'm a convert from Protestantism, and have been a deeply religious person virtually my entire life. Though since the birth of my son arriving early is a bit of a challenge, I do prefer to arrive early and stay until the end for reasons similar to those suggested by Stuart.

Thank you, StuartK, and all of those who helped me with this question. You have reminded me of what I learned in my Master Degree classes on the history of the Initiation sacraments that the Liturgy of the Word and of the Faithful are two very ancient divisions that date back to at least the 4th century and probably before. Of course the sermon was before the catechumens left, and they left after they heard the instruction on the Word of God. Thank you to the person who gave me the information about St. John Chrysostom. He didn't seem like the type that would make it easy on latecomers, since he was always getting in trouble by reminding the powerful of their Christian duties!
And thank you to the person who told me about Greece. The one liturgy I went to there, I couldn't remember what they did. My non-religious Greek friend's attitude is to float in and out of the liturgy more as a nostalgic and cultural exercise rather than a religious one. When I became Orthodox I also wanted to be there for every minute. In fact, I tried to estimate how many liturgies had had left in my entire life to experience. And since it was all in Greek, of which I knew little at the time, I was experiencing it like a baby, observing and gradually absorbing the movements and rhythm and eventually the words. It was truly a mystical experience.
Our pastor is quite annoyed with those who come into the solea to reverence icons when something "significant" is going on, such as the readings and the consecration, or any time when he is facing the people. He feels, and I believe rightly so, that it is disruptive to the prayers of the liturgy. It is a very small church, too, so people can't help but be distracted. But I must say that even with those annoying things, the feeling is more of family, a little messy, but family. Kind of like life.
Thanks for all your feedback.
In Christ,
Stavroula