www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall organ use in ECC OCC churches

There's been an ongoing "debate" in the local Latin Church diocesan paper about use of instruments in the Church. The letters, and some other pieces on the topic began when the new organ was installed in the Cathedral (Latin Church) and in conjunction with the dedication of the organ the director of music for the Cathedral wrote a piece about the place of the organ. (This is of course part of the ongoing debate throughout the Latin Church regarding how to rightly interpret "organ is to be accorded pride of place", from the documents of the second Vatican Council, what that means regarding the use of any other instruments.)

As part of this ongoing discussion a large article [catholicvoiceoakland.org] was in this paper yesterday. Because the author is writing as a music scholar about the place of the organ in "the Catholic Church" I would like to make a response about the claims he makes re "the Catholic Church", that is that we in the ECCs and OCCs do not have a history of the use of the organ or other instruments in Liturgy.

My experience is limited so before I say we don't have a history of that use I'd like to hear whether there are ECCs and OCCs which have a history of using the organ, or other instruments in Liturgy. I'm aware of many Greek Orthodox churches, including our local Greek Orthodox Cathedral, using organs. I want to hear about any use in the ECCs and OCCS.

I do think we have a history of using bells in conjunction with Liturgy, but these bells in my experience are located outside the temple, out of doors, and are not used as accompaniment to choral singing/praying. I've only heard them rung as book ends beginning and end of Liturgy.

That article is factually correct, and in fact much of its perspective is correct. It's 100% correct when it says that music is prayer and that a performance mentality is wrong. The problem is that it doesn't talk about what we're after when we're looking for church music, and what it does it seems to assume that anything is OK, especially if one decrees a piece to be good for "congregational singing".

The Vatican II decree I believe was purposed to recommend that liturgical music be restored to Gregorian chant and the more "sober" pieces of Renaissance Polyphony and organ music. Professor Gilman is quite correct that in the post-trdientine era, music went wild and we have full orchestra Masses that took hours (many of which you can find at your local classical music score by big-name composers), full organ Mass settings where only the organ plays, brass bands playing the national anthem during the consecration (Jesus was constitutionally the King of various countries and He's coming, so.....), and all kinds of things related to contemporary musical currents. I'll never forget the congregants' reactions when the music director at the nearby Latin Mass parish used a perfectly 50s atonal Mass setting.

Speaking solely from a perspective of the "Greek/Arab use" "Byzantine" churches, the vocal, 8 mode system we have right now is a development over the course of many centuries and is believed to have been influenced by many things - especially Palestinian, Cappadocian, and Athonite monasticism. Its development is deliberate. Pious stories about the angels inventing them aside, it is very true that each of the modes - their pitches, their intervals, etc - and the words and melodies set to them, the sounds and "feelings" generated by the music is are integral to the worship of the Church.

Just like the icon is a visual form of theophany - a theology, a manifestation of God vice just a painting- so church music must be the same, rather than just a song. This is what's acheived in well-done "Byzantine chant" - it's a form of prayer, indeed when the people participate (the ekklesia in synaxis) it's the highest form of prayer.

I wouldn't say that the modern major/minor mode music is necessarily wrong, but "good" church music must follow the same precepts. The uncritical use of rhythms, melodic structures, harmonic structures, etc from non-Church music is wrong because often when those are used they are meant to stimulate specific emotions - that's the power of music - which are not what we're looking for in our prayer. This was a documented problem in Late Antiquity, was a big problem in the late medieval period (e.g. "parody masses"), and was a problem from the 1700s on that the Vatican II decree to my recollection was meant to correct (one of many such decrees over time).

Re: organs - the organs we he use of the organ in the Greek Orthodox Parishes in the US is without parallel - allegedly they were incorporated as part of the Greek Orthodox attempt to "fit in" with the rest of American protestant society of the late 1800s/early 1900s. Personally, I believe that they and the whole corpus of organ music is inappropriate for our worship. I am unaware of their use in Greece or in other countries besides the US.

There is a synthesizer which can (and is) used in Byzantine music, producing a raw note of byzantine chant to serve as an "ison" as we call it in lieu of a human, but it's obviously an innovation. I think it's sometimes useful especially when cantors are not experienced, but it's easy to overuse.

Markos


"Union with God, not through words and theories, but through experience and illumination, is the goal of our sojourn on earth..."

Fr. Maximos of Mount Athos

Markos: some of the most ornate orchestral masses are by Beethoven and Mozart... that's nothing new.

Markos-
Thank you for your excellent message.

Just a reminder, I'm not interested here in the debate within the Latin Church, with which I'm very familiar. I want to respond to the article because he continually talks about "the Catholic Church", when he really is only talking about the Latin Church. I'd like to respond that the Latin Church is not the Catholic Church and that in the Catholic Church in our ECCs and OCCs things are not the same as in the Latin Church on this topic.

My question here is only asking for information about any use of instruments in Divine Liturgy in our ECCs and OCCs-- before I write and say we do not ever use them.

You're Melkite. Are instruments used in Melkite Divine Liturgy in some places?

The use of mechanical instruments in the Latin Church begins no earlier than the 11th century, when the organ was first introduced. Interestingly, it was considered by many to be an heretical innovation--prior to that time, the West, like the East, believed that only the living human voice was a suitable instrument for the living God. However, due to aristocratic sponsorship (and most bishops were aristocrats), the organ gradually took hold. By the 16th and 17th centuries, the organ was supplemented by the full range of orchestral instruments, and elaborately composed liturgical music was accepted into the repertoire. Of course, by that time, the responses had become pro forma--the priest did all the heavy lifting--and liturgical music was essentially background music.

"The use of mechanical instruments in the Latin Church begins no earlier than the 11th century"

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on the organ doesn't agree with you.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11297a.htm

I've seen articles like this too, and want to encourage you to respond and do some PR for the Eastern Church. I get upset when I read in an article that "Pope Benedict is the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church..." like that is the extent of it.

I wonder how many RCs know anything about the 21 Eastern Catholic churches.

I'm always having to explain that I'm a Catholic too...thanks to SS Cyril and Methodius for converting the Slavs, and I make sure to add that I love the Byzantine Catholic Church. That's my 'elevator speech.'

If you read this paragraph from this link you provided, it actually confirms Stuart's statement!

In the early centuries the objection of the Church to instrumental music applied also to the organ, which is not surprising, if we remember the association of the hydraulus with theatre and circus. According to Platina ("De vitis Pontificum", Cologne, 1593), Pope Vitalian (657-72) introduced the organ into the church service. *This, however, is very doubtful. At all events, a strong objection to the organ in church service remained pretty general down to the twelfth century, which may be accounted for partly by the imperfection of tone in organs of that time.* But from the twelfth century on, the organ became the privileged church instrument, the majesty and unimpassioned character of its tone making it a particularly suitable means for adding solemnity to Divine worship.

Thank you. I will respond, with or without input I had hoped I could get here.

Thus far the discussion here is not on my topic but on a different topic- that of liturgical music and instrument use in the Latin Church. I have opinions and knowledge on that topic re the Latin Church and it's not the topic I wish to write about in responding to this article. I only want to respond regarding the ECCs and OCCs. Hopefully there will be some responses to the question I asked.
I did note that Markos mentioned the use in some "Byzantine" music of a synthesizer as an "ison". I assume he meant use in liturgical settings.

Okay folks..

NO MORE discussing the use of instruments in the Latin Mass...Either answer 'likethethief's' question:



or let's start a new thread.

Thank you.

Alice, Moderator

A number of Greek parishes in the U.S. have taken up the organ, mainly to carry the ison in the absence of a trained choir to back up the cantor. I remember the look of horror on Metropolitan Kallistos' face when a local Greek parish used one in his presence.

Dear Stuart,

I am depending on you...if anyone can answer or find the answer, I am sure it is you...to 'likethethief's' question regarding any use of the orgain in either the ECC or the OCC. Thank you.

Alice

Organ music, or any other instrumental music, is not permitted in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I can say that organs were definitely to be found in some ECCs in the days of latinization. Harder to speak to OCCs as there weren't really many of their temples to be found in the US, except the Armenians and a few Syriac until more recent times. Not sure how much has changed, but a fair number of Maronite parishes used to have organs.

A small organ was installed in the Melkite Cathedral when it was built - and that was 1966. It was inside a small fairly enclosed 'choir loft' (for lack of a better term) that was on floor level immediately behind the bishop's throne.

It was used briefly - as memory serves, Archbishop Joseph's coming and its demise pretty much coincided. For a long time afterwards, it served as a handy place for stacking books, choir members to lay their coats, etc.

I have to admit that I can't recollect if it's still there or not - will have to take a glance this weekend.

Many years,

Neil

Every Byzantine-Ruthenian parish I've been to has had a piano or synth in the hall, for cantor practice, but none of them has had them in the nave, let alone in use during the Liturgy.