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Fr. Deacon,

With all do respect Father,

The Unia, and some of its more violent and tragic situations, is now considered by the Catholic Church as the wrong way forward for true Union between east and west. The Catholic Church, under JPII, has apologized for violence committed against Orthodox Christians during this time. But not all Greek Catholics were forced to enter communion with the Roman Church. Is it so hard to image that some Orthodox Christians truly wanted to be in Communion with Western Church? This Orthodox Christian did, so why couldn't my forefathers do the same? Of course you will disagree and say that this is against the cannons but what about the Western rite Orthodox? Rome does not protest them to my knowledge. So its okay in your opinion for Western rite Orthodoxy to exist but not okay for Eastern Catholics? A little double standard. I have no problem with Western rite Orthodoxy (of course to me this also includes the whole Latin Church)

The complete and utter destruction of the UCGC by the Soviets with the cooperation, sadly of the Russian Orthodox Church was a horrible situation and many thousands died resisting. Has the Russian Church apologized for the crimes committed against the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church? Last time I looked, I could be wrong, the Catholic Poles at the time of the Unia didn't put people into death camps. (The God-less ones did this to Orthodox Christians as well and I am taking nothing away from their courages stand for Christianity- may they and the Catholic Martyrs of the Communist pray for all of us)

The Catholic Church actively promotes Union with the Orthodox, allows the Orthodox to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in the Vatican at Saint Peters on a Catholic Altar. I guess it is okay for them to visit and celebrate on the territory of the Pope and Patriarch of the West but heaven forbid if the Pope visits Ukraine. The Russian Church freaks out! (last time I looked Ukraine was not part of Russia) Would the Pope freak out if an Orthodox Patriarch visited the small minority of Orthodox Poles? Nope...Seems like a double standard.

Pray for me Fr. Deacon.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I agree with the fact that the liquidation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the killing of God fearing and peaceful Catholics was not only a great tragedy but a crime against humanity but the Russian Church had little to do with the matter. The Catholic Church in Ukraine was liquidated by the Soviet Government because they were seen as an outside entity controlled by a foreign power. The Orthodox didn't have much choice in the matter. After all before the Godless ones came to power the Catholic Church existed in the Russian Empire and there was no talks of closing or liquidating it.

It is hardly fair to blame the evils done by the Communist regime on the Russian Church.

Either way forgive me. I let myself say things I shouldn't have.

This will be my last post on this thread.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

And once again thank you Nelson for bringing me back to earth.

Bad history, that. The Treaty of Brest was the result of an internal movement within the Kyivan Church in response to a series of crises in the late 16th century. It was not "imposed" by anyone, but negotiated by a group of Orthodox bishops and priests. It did not work out the way they had hoped, but don't pretend that it was an act of force majeur such as that used by the communists in 1948-49.

Speaking of which, the failure of the Russian Orthodox Church to come to terms both with the fact of the false synods and their own complicity in them is a sign of emotional and spiritual immaturity. Metropolitan Kallistos was only half jesting when he said the Orthodox motto is "Never explain and never apologize".

Nice whitewashing of history there Stuart.

First of all The Unia was in fact imposed by the Poles working with apostate Orthodox Bishops many of whom received lands, money and Polish titles for their cooperation. After Brest a campaign of extreme discrimination against Orthodox Christians, especially in Western Ukraine went on until the Brotherhoods were formed and started to defend the Ukrainian Orthodox people against the oppressors. The Orthodox could not participate in the government, could not hold prestigious positions. Orthodox Christians who passed away could not be taken out of the city through the main gates in L'viv. They had to be taken out the back with the trash. Many were tortured and murdered for not accepting the Unia.

The Russian Orthodox Church on the other hand was forced to hold a synod by the Soviet Government where Greek Cahtolic clergy actually voted to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church and go under the omophor of Orthodox Bishops. In fact the priest who initiated the liquidation of the Byzantine Catholic Church was the Saintly Fr. Gabriel Kostelnik who was later martyred by the opponents of the liquidation.

I am not going to pretend that the Soviet Authorities had nothing to do with the synod, however blaming the Russian Orthodox Church for this is preposterous and very offensive.

Please note that it was about a hundred years after Brest that L'viv, Peremyshl and Luck accepted the Union - if they did so as a result of "violence" the violence was remarkably ineffective. In the city of L'viv the Stauropegion concluded a separate union with Rome a few years later - and the Orthodox remnant had no special difficulty establishing and maintaining a parish of their own (which is currently the Russian Orthodox Cathedral in L'viv). Earlier the union was accepted by Central Ukraine and Belarus'. But facts are less interesting than propaganda, it seems.

As to Father Kostel'nyk, he would have nothing to do with the "anti-Uniate movement" until they had killed at least one of his sons, claimed (falsely) to have another son in their custody (the son was already safely in England) and threatened to get at his daughter via Tito. One can feel compassion for a man trapped in what he considered an impossible position, but that does not make him "saintly".

There is no proof at all that Father Kostel'nyk was killed by opponents of the "reunion". They tried to force his wife to claim that the assassin was her son; she swore she had never see then man before in her life. Before making such wild charges, it would be better to find some solid evidence. There are several volumes of authenticated documents on how the "reunion" with the Moscow Patriarchate was forced and maintained.

The very fact that the majority of Christians in Western Ukraine are Greek-Catholics is a most eloquent witness against the fabricated claim that what happened in 1946 was "voluntary". Those who wish to attend Orthodox churches are quite free to do so.

The Moscow Patriarchate continues to maintain that the "synod" of 1946 was "voluntary" and "canonical". Seems to me that the Patriarchate by doing this is accepting resposibility for what happened.

Without accuracy, and serious efforts to develop an agreed history, we shall continue to talk at cross purposes.

Fr. Serge

Why would the Basilians object to the beatification of Kyr Andrei? I'm surprized at this assertion - seems they'd regard his beatification with great favor.

The Basilians were steadfast opponents of Kyr Andrij's attempts to restore the fullness of the Byzantine Tradition among the Ukrainian Greek Catholics through reform of the liturgy and the foundation of the Studite order. He was accused by them, among other things, of being Crypto-Orthodox and a russophile.

I am pretty new to this forum, but as a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, and someone who studied in university the Golgotha it went through in 1946 during its liquidation, I am quite stunned at the comments made by Deacon Borislav about my Church. I really am stunned. I read the materials on Father Kostelnyk and the Soviet Secret Police using his son. I won't even go into Patriarch Kirill's background vis-a-vis Cardinal Huzar's.

Funny thing is we are having this conversation while Father Gudziak's (who wrote on the Union of Brest) phone at the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv is probably tapped by the secret police loyal to the new pro-Russian President of Ukraine Yanukovych. The staff at the University are quite worried.

So who knows: those who post about "violence" when the Ukrainian Catholic Church emerged from the catacombs after the Soviet Union collapsed without mentioning the tortures and beatings it hierarchs and priests suffered at the hands of Soviet authorities before in the 1940s-1980s is quite a stretch. And of course the ROC has never even commented on those events. As George Weigel alluded to, how much the ROC in Russia AND Ukraine is a political tool for Putin's Russia, and how much religious may be a question worth asking.

In any event, have no fear Deacon. With things going the way they are going, all of Halych might "return" to Moscow soon enough.

I agree with Vladzyunyu.
I'd also like to mention that while Orthodox and Catholics in Ukraine are quarelling among themselves, the Mormons have rushed into the spirituality void and are at this very moment building one of their temples in Kiev, of all places. In the description I read of this edifice, it says the temple's stained-glass windows will incorporate Ukrainian graphic designs associated with the pysanky.
How grotesque.

Didn't the ROC make an official statement about the pseudo-synod of Lviv of 1946 saying something to the effect that there is no need for an apology and even to imply that Ukrainian Catholics should be grateful for it since it helped preserve the Ukrainian Catholic Church?

I remember being shocked when I read it online several years ago and have been trying to find it again.

Do any of you recall reading such a statement?

I am not a proponent of any such thing and to insinuate this based on this discussion of history is absurd.

I continue to pray for a unified and CANONICAL Ukrainian Autocephalous Church in the country where I was born and was raised, but I pray this happens through a peaceful and prayerful process with the co-operation of both MP and UGCC.

Father Deacon Borislav wishes to tell us that


I keep staring incredulously at this amazing mis-statement of the relevant religious demographics. Assuming, as one normally does, that Western Ukraine consists of the three oblasts of L'viv, Ternopil, and Ivano-Frankivsk, one finds that these oblasts have a significant majority of Greek-Catholics; this is not as a rule disputed.

So what is Father Deacon talking about?

Fr. Serge

I believe the good Deacon was stating that Catholics who reside in "Western Ukraine" are a minority when looking at Ukraine as a whole nation not just the Western Oblasts.

Again, the actual count depends on how the question is asked, and who is doing the counting.

Surely one should not be required to use a code book to decipher postings on the forum!

Fr. Serge