www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Send Your Letters Again

Thank you for the insight! That does make things very difficult.

This is the first that I read this thread, so I had a lot of catching up to do. My thoughts.....

1. Stuart, we don't have a protodeacon in the Archeparchy. The idea of deacons is still fairly new; the first class was ordained in 2003.
2. None of our deacons receive a salary...its all on a voluntary basis. Many work and support and nourish a family. Same with the archeparchial choir. They take time to travel for practices at their own expense....then receive criticism because they don't sound professional enough. Perhaps someone may want to donate several thousand dollars so that they can live up to professional expectations (paid practice time; reimbursement of travel expenses, etc)

3. Roman Catholic parishes have paid choir directors and paid organists; with parishioner numbering in the thousands they can afford to do this. Same goes for the Orthodox cathedrals in Russia. Our "larger" parishes have only "hundreds" of parishioners.

4. I have been to many pre-RDL Divine Liturgies and, while they were beautiful, none were "professional." In my opinion, when we demand "professional" liturgies we will have lost congregational singing....and they will be nothing more than showcases. But in reality they will be a "gonging bell." The most moving DL's that I have been to have not been "professional" but were sung from the heart by tone deaf, tin-earred as well as "good" singers. Those are the worship services that are most pleasing to God's ear.

5. Deacon Lance asked the question about what was wrong with the deacons rubrics. I was curious about it too, but no one answered. Answers, anyone?

May Metropolitan Archbishop Basil rest in peace. Vicnaja pomjat!

Fr Deacon Paul

Most Roman parishes I've been in, don't have paid choir directors any more. Some of the very large parishes do, but for the most part many of them just let anyone who claims to be able to play the guitar, lead the "choir."

Stuart: the current liturgy isn't a translation from the Slavonic... they stated they were deriving it from the Greek liturgies. (That's a whole 'nother can of worms...) So it's pretty amazing it lines up at all with the older, Slavonic-sourced English translation.

Paul: only large Roman parishes routinely pay a music minister... often just to be a coordinator.

Father Deacon Paul,

That the first diaconal class in Pittsburgh began in 2003 is an indictment of the leadership of Archeparchy. There were deacons in Passaic when I arrived in 1996 (including a protodeacon); if there were no deacons in Pittsburgh, where the Metropolitan is supposed to be setting an example, what does that say?

I also know that deacons don't receive a salary, and do what they do out of love for the Church. That's no excuse not to know the job. It merely confirms my impression that liturgy doesn't have a high priority in the Metropolia.

I also don't think we need profession choirs or paid cantors--quite the opposite. What we need is restoration of the tradition of the Carpatho-Rusyn Church of congregational plainchant transmitted orally and learned by heart, thereby making books for the people superfluous (the Melkite parish where I now worship has no pewbooks whatsoever--or pews, for that matter--and they sing the way Epiphany used to sing). And because our chant tradition is oral, you simply cannot write it down and say, "use this and no other arrangement".

I sang in a very much non-professional choir at Epiphany, and they did better than most professional choirs I have heard (certainly better than the Schola Cantorum, which may be good on a concert stage, but doesn't know how to sing liturgically). So don't put words in my mouth, please.

You say that 'when we demand "professional" liturgies we will have lost congregational singing....and they will be nothing more than showcases'. I submit that's what you're getting today, since only the cantors and choirs bother with the new music. The old music may not have been complete, it may not have been a perfect transcription of Boskaj, but it was a close match to what was actually being sung in the Mother Church, and was accessible to the people, who sang it with gusto (when their cantors allowed them to do so--cantors who think they are Caruso or Pavarotti were always a good piece of the problem). I think I was very explicit in saying (either on this thread or a closely related one) that a congregational Liturgy sung with feeling is superior by far to one sung perfectly without any emotional commitment--hence my problem with Scholar Cantorum, for instance--the "Ruthenian Madrigal Society". The actual impact of the RDL has been to create precisely the kind of showcase you decry.

As to the problems with the lyrics, I haven't had a chance to look at the original texts of the Funeral Service for a Bishop, so I couldn't tell you at this point.

Though Greek and Slavic usage have some significant differences (and pre-Nikonian Slavic usage has some significant differences from Nikonian usage), about 90% of the text is common to all. However, where there are major differences, these tend to be highly audible or visible. As a general rule, the pre-Nikonian usage preserves the older, more pristine Tradition, so relying on Greek texts was as methodologically faulty in the RDL as it was in the 17th century. Not only did the Greeks continue to evolve after 1453, but their texts (generally printed in Venice) became increasingly corrupt through sloppy copy editing.

In any case, though, the biggest boners in the new "translation" do not come from following the Greek text, but from faulty knowledge of Slavonic and a willful desire to impose tendentious wording not supported by either the Greek or Slavonic texts ("Everywhere and always"? You just can't get there from here).

Father Deacon Paul,

Think about how poorly cantors are treated in the Byzantine Catholic Church. They usually apprentice themselves to an experienced cantor and spend years learning the music. Then the bishops tell them that everything they learned is worthless and they need to re-learn everything. The cantors are not consulted over anything. They are given music that makes one wonder if the people who arranged it speak English as a first language. And if they dare to ask questions they are accused of disobedience.

There was nothing wrong with the old music. It worked. And it looks like the old translation was more accurate.

Jason

Stuart,

Please don’t blame the deacons. Their heads are spinning from the changes. Every priest demands something different. Everything and anything is allowed EXCEPT the Ruthenian rubrics.

Jason

Everything is in the Ordo Celebrationis. Nothing else is required nor can anything else be substituted for it.

There are worse things. A quick perusal of those accused by their bishops of disobedience includes St. Athanasius, St. Maximos the Confessor, St. John of Damascus, Saint Theodore the Studite. . . .it seems whenever the bishops don't have a leg on which to stand, the old appeal to authority is rolled out.

Our bishops, and many of our priests as well, have difficulty remembering that this isn't the dark side of the Carpathians, where the only literate people in the village are the priest and the cantor (and maybe not him). It irks them to no end that there are, within the laity, people with more expertise in certain areas than they themselves possess. Yet they always need to be seen as "The Smartest Guys in the Room". That was the title of a book about ENRON, and it seems to me that ENRON and the Ruthenian Church have similar management playbooks.

That there is no protodeacon in the Archeparchy is unfortunate. We can only hope that this will be corrected in the future.

To avoid misunderstanding I know that Stuart has spoken in favor of congregational singing as opposed to princpally choral responses. My post left room for misunderstanding; I was responding to several posters in my comments.

With regard to banishing all pew books and encourage singing from memory....if this were the case I would have been lost when singing Slavonic. We all need crutches, I still rely on the book for assistance when I'm filling in for our regular cantor. I undertand the point which is being made, but eliminating the books will eventually lead to fewer people singing within two generations. A literate American culture has made books mandatory. I agree there are some shortfalls with the new music, versions, settings, wording, etc but this can be corrected over time. I'm confident that it will be, just as it has been corrected in the past.

It seems the funeral of Metropolitan Archbishop Basil became a catalyst to voice some legitimate shortcomings....and some nitpicking, but I consider both to be rude. Archbishop Basil's funeral comments should be made with dignity. There are many other opportunities for criticisms.

I hope that I've not offended anyone; a freedom to express opinions is important. Please be courteous (Christian) and use the proper venues.

Fr Deacon Paul

Thank you Father Paul for asking all to be Christian and courteous in voicing their opinion, especially in regard to the Council of Bishops (they are the Apostles of Christ). Christian Love and prayer must be the starting point of all conversation.

The Ruthenian Church has endured many difficulties over the past 100 years. I hope and pray that as Christians all will work together with a common goal rather than causing further divisions.

Heiromonk Luke

I am now 62 years old, and I don't remember a time when the music of the BCA was ever good. Perhaps that's why I don't criticize the "new" music as opposed to the "old" music. It's been mediocre for as long as I can remember.

I know some criticize paid musicians, but it's true that you get what you pay for. Paying for professional musicians can indicate that the church takes good liturgical music seriously and is willing to support it. That's not the current case in our church, in my observation.

I've heard that argument, and the miserable state of liturgical music in the Roman Catholic Church (which does pay its music ministers, organists, etc.) is the best rebuttal to that one.

Besides, there were always places where the music in the Ruthenian Church was exquisite. Your misfortune was not to have heard it.

No, I didn't hear it in the BCA where it was good, I only heard the bad. And let's face it, Ruthenian music at its best was much simpler and plainer than what was available in the local Orthodox churches.

I am also one of those paid musicians in the RC Church, and our music is excellent. If I couldn't do it well, I wouldn't take the salary.