www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West "Gettin' to Heaven"

I am curious about the Eastern mindset about heaven etc. I recently came back into the Roman Catholic Church and so I have been absorbing and trying to learn a lot of things and purge the Americanized Protestant mindset.
I was recently listening to an orthodox podcast describing that heaven isn't a place up in the sky... and it got me to thinking that the RCC while having a continuously sanctifying (and to an extent sacramental) view of life it seems that it is still "transactional" like the Protestants. According to RCC if one dies with an unconfessed mortal sin then you die in a state without grace and don't get to heaven or rather you are out in the cold. OK that's probably over-simplifying, yet this still seems as transactional as walking down the aisle and "accepting Jesus" as your "personal Lord and Savior" and then knowing you're going to heaven.

Heaven ain't our ultimate objective. The notion that when we die we go to some ethereal, non-corporeal paradise is gnostic and has no scriptural or patristic foundation. Ultimately, Christ will come again in glory, and restore the totality of creation, the seen and the unseen, the material and the spiritual, to the perfection God intended before Adam's fall. Thus, "we will not die, but we will all be raised", in perfected "spiritual" bodies. Paul's language is confusing in translation, but there can be no doubt Paul anticipated that in the resurrection our bodies would be as Christ's body was after His resurrection, and we will all live for eternity with God, in those bodies, in a perfected material universe.

Stuart,

Interesting! (as usual). Didn't many of the Fathers, though, support the (entirely non-scriptural) notion of a Particular Judgment? The only purpose of the latter, so far as I can figure, is to get around the fact that the saints are able to pray for us, even though the Final Judgment "hasn't happened yet."

I have long entertained the notion that if we had a proper understanding of "God's time" (as Schmemann sometimes called it), we could unite our notions of a "spiritual heaven" (i.e. before the Final Resurrection) with those of the Restored Creation that you rightly describe.

However, it has been pointed out to me that the Particular Judgment is firmly established in the teaching of the Fathers, both East and West. ISTM, as long as you keep this theological construct, you can't eliminate the notion of a "spiritual heaven," and when the Final Judgment comes, "getting our bodies back" is reduced to just icing on the cake.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dave,

Properly understood, mortal sin (as described in 1 John 5:16-17) is a complete breaking--from our end--of the covenant relationship with God in Christ that is established at our Baptism. Of course, it can be difficult to determine exactly where this rupture takes place, so the RCC has traditionally tried to "make it easier" for people, with the result that even the priests tended to see things as simplified, black-and-white, or as you say, "transactional."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

A priest of the Latin Church once said, "Most people are too stupid to be able to commit a mortal sin." I think he's on to something.

That a rather arrogant and dangerous statement made by the priest -- IMO.

Funny, it struck me as compassionate.

Really? How so?

In my way of thinking there are plenty of folks that are 1-step away from mortal sins. They do all they can to get right up to the edge... then it's not far to go over...

Modern U.S. society had made it very easy and even makes it a virtue of sorts to sin..

The real issue is the tendency of some people to focus more on staying out of hell than attaining true holiness, and this in turn creates an attitude of legalism and minimalism--what's the most I can do without crossing the line into "mortal" sin, and what is the least I can do to fulfill all my "obligations"? How very different from the approach of the Fathers, who sought perfection, and knew that attaining it required taking great risks and making great sacrifices.

We like to flatter ourselves with an illusion of knowing a great deal, when in reality we are very ignorant, especially of ourselves, our true motives, etc.

We commit acts that are grave matter as defined in God's word. No question.

What about full knowledge of the gravity? And full intent of the will in the light of such knowledge? That is where I think most people fall mercifully short of committing such an act as would be an eternal severance with God. And it was in just such a spirit of compassion for human frailty that the priest made that remark.

Mercy, brother. Judge with mercy.

I found the Latin Priests commit to be of great comfort. So, I agree with you Gabriel..

Nice post. I agree.
Since coming back to the Catholic church from the Methodist church, I feel like I understand this better. I also feel like (for lack of a better analogy) that "bar is set much higher"...
Of course having a cohesive faith and the apostolic tradition defintely helps.
And the reverence at Mass helps set the tone for the "rest of the week".

OK I see where you're coming from now.
Maybe I've seen the dark side of myself and too many others, but IMHO most people "know" when they're hurting others. They willing indulge in their own selfish desires at the expense of others.
Grant it we can't know the glory that we will miss by denying God, but the fact that our guilty consciouses cause us to repent says that we know we have done wrong and we're blessed that God forgives our sins.

Hope to be there and see everyone from the Forum! :-)