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I often see John Chrysostom listed in the purgatory apologetic literature. The reference is his in 1 Cor concerning praying for the dead.
Also in the pro-purgatory literature is usually thrown in there the Scripture quoting 1 Cor 3:12-16. And this is used as scriptural evidence proof-text for purgatory being biblical.
But when I look at John C's homily on 1 Cor 3:12-16 I find that he doesn't believe in the "classic" understanding of purgatory as a place of temporal punishmentr just a place to clean the venial sins. Rather his view is that for the person who built with straw, hay, etc his works will be burned up, but he will not be burned up as in annihilated but will continue on in the fire burning - i.e. burn in hell.
To say the least I find it disingenuous to use John C as a supporter of the notion of purgatory when he clearly speaks against the "classic" understanding....
It's one thing to say that our prayers may be efficacious for the dead, but another to be teaching that a foundation in faith will save you and the works are somewhat optional....
I'm pretty frustrated and feel like i have been lied to a bit by the catechism.

I'd suggest that maybe you reconsider your conclusions.

Here's the fuller version of what your quoting (emphasis added):
The fuller homily can be found at: Chrysostom Homily on 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [ccel.org].

While what is considered to be the classic definition of purgatory developed later (with indulgences and all that), St. John Chrysostom would have supported the essential point behind the West's teaching on purgatory, that after death those who are judged righteous but who still suffer from the effects of sin are cleansed before the final reward. The East images this as a purifying ascent to the Light, the West as a purification by fire. St. John Chrysostom's words support both images.

Again in regards to his homily John C is not talking about salvation as through the fire at all, as the footnote to the text atests to it.

[b][/b]

I don't see your issue. I see St. John Chrysostom's words in light of the Hymn of St. John Damascene that we sing at every funeral: "All is vanity in man that does not outlive death. Neither riches endure nor does glory survive; for with the coming of death all these are destroyed. Let us exclaim to Christ, the Immortal: "Grant rest to Your departed servant in the dwelling of those enjoying eternal happiness."

Man's works are vanity and do not outlive death. They "pass into nought (nothing) while man himself shall abide in the fire." What type of fire? Maybe it is a cleansing fire that purges the effects of sin? You might not have the coolness of the Three Youths who danced in the fire as though it were a refreshing breeze but surely if you had the knowledge that you were ultimately saved you'd be happy and endure it? "He shall abide in the fire" says you make it through. And don't be "astonished" at the fire because it for healing and not damnation.

All this says is that the penalty is or can be great. So great that one might think that the punishment is forever. But he does not say that.

Read to the end. He speaks of receiving from heaven and recovering!

So... you're saying there's temporal punishment for sins even if they've been forgiven?

I don;t agree with your assesment if that's indeed what's you're saying...
It appears to me he's saying that there's not a 2nd chance after death...
the fire referred to in 1 cor 3 is not such that one cna believe the faith and not live it and expect to be with the Lord in the afterlife, rather he's saying that the fire will burn up what one did in this worldly life as if it was chaff but the person him or herself will burn forever...

Dear Dave,

In reference to the first part, Roman Catholics do believe that there is temporal punishment even after absolution. It is part of their theology Here is a sample reasoning. Let's say there is a kid who brakes his mom's vase. Equate that with the sin. Even after his mother forgives him, the vase is still broken and there needs to be a new one. So his mom gives him money to go buy the new vase. It is from this understanding, from their theology that they have indulgences which can remove some or all of temporal effects. (Not sure if punishment would, id, the best word, maybe effects would be better.) Or that is at least how the Priest explained it to me while I was getting Catechized during lent for my confirmation.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Dave:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

How did you come to this conclusion? The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an authoritative statement of the Catholic Church's teaching (at least for the Western portion), though our Eastern Catholic brethren have been working on one of their own. Are you saying that the official Church has lied?

Bob

Should this issue not be read in light of the thread about God and a literal Hell?

That is, God is Himself a purifying fire. One's works are the virtues one has acquired. If one has worked but acquired no virtue but is still not completely corrupt, one may be purified as the fire of the Divine Love penetrates one's being. On the other hand, the one who has already acquired virtues--the righteous man--already possesses the spark of the Divine Love burning within him: he already possesses a portion of Heaven now during his pilgrimage. For this last, he is like the dikiri: his communion with God begins now and continues; he is not consumed by the Divine Fire but enters more fully into that communion.

And what is the reward? The Divine Embrace for all eternity.

Bob

I've not stated that and I don't see how you read that in Chrysostom. Temporal punishment for sins forgiven is not part of it. Let's take another look at what he is saying in the commentary you quoted:
One can see several possible applications. Look at these words through the words of Mt. 6:20: "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal." What type of treasures did you build up in your life? Were they true treasures in heaven, treasures of faithfulness and good works that build up a suit of golden armour to protect you as as you pass through the river of fire? Or were they true treasures of earth, treasures of faithlessness and selfishness that build up a suit of crusted hay that would be devoured by the river of fire as soon as you entered it, and once devoured by that fire taken by the current from the river of fire to the Lake of Fire (Hell)?

Consider it in light of the kontakion for the Sunday of Last Judgment (Meat-Fare, before the Fast starts): "O God, when You come to earth in glory the whole world will tremble. The River of Fire will bring men before Your judgment-seat, the books will be opened and all hidden things revealed. On that day deliver me from the unquenchable fire, and count me worthy to stand on Your right hand, O most righteous Judge."

Whether a man passes through the River of Fire unblemished is dependent upon what is written in the book. Sins confessed and repented of are not recorded there. Sins not yet confessed and repented are written there. All men are sinners and fall short so there is something written in the book for each of us. Have you build up treasures of heaven in your life, treasures that will provide you with enough insulation (a suit of fire-resistant golden armor) to cross the River of Fire unscathed? Or do you have to cross that river not only with straw as your armor (which can be quickly burned to a crisp) but also the weight of unconfessed and unrepented sin that allows the current to carry you down river into the Lake of Fire?

The journey of the soul upon death really should not be seen as a second chance to start again. It is better seen as the normal procedure in which someone who dies in sin, but in lesser sin, someone who's name has already been written in the Book of Life. If you want, compare it the chance to take a shower before going in to the banquet of heaven.

[PS: Bob's image is a good one, though different from the one by Chrysostom under discussion.]

JOHN:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

It seems to me that discussions like this tend to get into that legalism that is at the heart of what St. Gergory of Nyssa termed "pagan perfection," a static thing.

I view this process in terms of St. Gergory's book, From Glory to Glory, wherein he makes the case for Christian perfection being rather a state of "perfecting," an ongoing process that begins now and continues throughout eternity. The case is that we have a bit of Heaven within us now--our life being hidden with Christ in God as a result of our initiation by Baptism--and a Heaven that will continue to grow for us and in us throughout eternity. It isn't a case, as some would have it, that we can do what we want now--ignoring God and the Christian life--and expecting to waltze into the Kingdom at the end with everyone else.

So this purification process--however it comes about--is part of the idea of the present progressive tense in verbs: something that is ongoing and part of a process that begins and continues throughout eternity rather than ever being a completion.

And in all of it, I intend to throw myself on the mercy of the Just Judge because I don't trust my own efforts and I know that anything I may have done that pleases Him is the result of His gift, His grace, and the prompting of the Holy Spirit--none of which I can claim as my own in the first place.

In Christ,


Bob

John & Bob, I appreciate the responses.
I don't think I am communicating what I'm thinking/feeling clearly so I apologize for that causing undue confusion.

I've checked out the latest catechism and I see how what it says matches with what you'all have said.

When one does a search on an explanation of purgatory, temporal sin, indulgences, etc on the Catholic websites it can get pretty confusing especially if they're using some of the older wording with regards to punishment and days.....

DAVE:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

With so many things on the internet, the Catholic websites you may be finding may, in fact, be set up by people who have dated information. In some cases, it may be that they style themselves "Latin trads" and have an agenda--that being the attempt to turn back the clock pre-Vatican II. Ignore them. The Catechism tells you what the Church is teaching. The Holy Spirit is working in the Church--something that some of these "trads" want to ignore or deny. Take your questions to the Catechism, then take further questions to your parish priest. Further, please know that there are differences in the way questions are posed and answered between East and West. This latter does not mean that one is right and the other is wrong. It means that there is a difference in the experience of the Mystery of God coming among us as one of us and bridging the gap caused by sin. It means that no one's theologumena are better than another's; it means that we are all stabbing in the dark about things that "eye hath not seen, nor hath ear heard." And many of these things are not easily understood out of context or without the extensive background of the saints who have written them.

Bob

I found a website with quotes from the church fathers that refer to purgatory. John Chrysostom doesn't refer to purgatory directly, but he says:

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392])

and,


"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402])

That is all I could find regarding John Chrysostom and purgatory. But obviously purgatory is a place that he believed in or else why would he have urged people to pray for the dead? If "those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their souls" are not enjoying the beatific vision in heaven then they must be in a temporal state of isolation. And even if that is in the burning lake of fire, if they can be helped out of it then it is just a purgatory.

Since this topic popped again on here...
Let me just say thanks! for everyone who responded on here.

I appreciate all your insights and help.

Peace & Blessings,
dave

I have found the website east2west.org [east2west.org] (Anthony Dragani's, who I believe used to be active in this forum) to have an excellent contrast between East & West in the context of purgatory, and fits in line with the comments above re: St. John Chrystostom and the different teachings.

Here is the passage:

Could you please explain the differences among Latin theology concerning the Dogma of Purgatory and that of the various Eastern Churches?

As a general rule, all Eastern Christians do not use the word "Purgatory." This includes both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The word "Purgatory" is specific to the Latin tradition, and carries some specific historical baggage that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable.

In the Medieval West, many popular theologians defined Purgatory as a specific place, where people essentially sat around and suffered. Some theologians went so far as to imply that a literal fire burns those who suffer in Purgatory. It was also popular to tally periods of time that people spent in purgatory for various offences. It is worth noting that contemporary Roman Catholic theology has (thankfully) moved beyond this approach, to a more Patristic understanding of Purgatory.

In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.

The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points. In practice, we routinely celebrate Divine Liturgies for the dead, and offer numerous prayers on their behalf. We would not do so if we did not agree with the above two dogmatic points.

But again, we do not use the word "Purgatory" for two reasons. First, it is a Latin word first used in the Medieval West, and we use Greek words to describe our theology. Second, the word "Purgatory" still carries specific Medieval baggage that we aren't comfortable with.

It is noteworthy that my own Byzantine Catholic Church has never been required to use the word Purgatory. Our act of reunion with Rome, "The Treaty of Brest," which was formally accepted by Pope Clement VIII, does not require us to accept the Western understanding of Purgatory.

Article V of the Treaty of Brest states "We shall not debate about purgatory..." implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls "Purgatory."

In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis." This refers to the process of deification, in which the remnants of our humans nature are transformed, and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. Rather than seeing this as a place to "sit and suffer," the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy.

Interestingly, Mother Angelica has repeatedly expressed a very positive understanding of "Purgatory" being a joyful state, rather than a place of suffering. In some ways her description lines up well with the Eastern understanding of the Final Theosis.

Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point.

Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.