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Annually, I cringe when I post this ... but, Fr Roberson has posted the 2010 AP Stats [cnewa.org]Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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What is it that makes you cringe, I wonder?
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What do all these numbers mean?
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What is it that makes you cringe, I wonder? What do all these numbers mean? Luvr, your question is the answer to LC's question. We will soon begin the endless rounds of analysis as to what these numbers mean and that is why I cringe. In short, they are the stats, for each of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, by jurisdiction, as to numbers of faithful, clergy, etc - showing growth or decline since the prior year, as reported to and published in the Vatican Yearbook. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Thank you. So that I'll understand what people are talking about in reference to these numbers, what do "Bish Par SecPr RelPr MRel FRel PD Sm" mean? I'm guessing Bish = Bishop and Par = Parishes. Does the 2 under Bish mean we have had two Bishops since the beginning of this Eparchy? (I doubt it means we currently have two bishops lol)I can imagine also that MRel = Monastic Religious. Does that number mean we have 16 Monastic communities or 16 monastics? I'm quite curious about these numbers. And I am of course referring to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church Eparchy of Newton numbers. I'm kind of sad though that we had lost just over 2000 parishioners since it's height in '05.
Kyrie eleison,
Manuel
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As I'm looking over these numbers, I'm very curious about an anomaly. Why are the Melkite Greek Catholics 3 million smaller than the Ukranian Greek Catholics when 20 years ago there were 20k more Melkites than than Ukrainians?
Kyrie eleison,
Manuel
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I don't know how accurate the membership statistics are. I think some Churches count their members, while others just estimate the numbers.
Therefore, the most interesting figures are the ones which are most likely to be accurate: number of parishes, clergy, religious, seminarians, etc.
In particular, the number of ordinations and the number of baptisms are interesting and can say a lot about the way a particular Church is heading, but Father Roberson leaves out these figures.
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It seems to me that if an Eastern Church has just erected an exarchate or eparchy and shifted the numbers toward the newly formed jurisdiction, it would take away from the original eparchy, but if the new one is not added yet, it would look like a significant drop in numbers. This seems to be the case in at least a few eparchies.
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Thank you. So that I'll understand what people are talking about in reference to these numbers, what do "Bish Par SecPr RelPr MRel FRel PD Sm" mean? I'm guessing Bish = Bishop and Par = Parishes. Does the 2 under Bish mean we have had two Bishops since the beginning of this Eparchy? (I doubt it means we currently have two bishops lol)I can imagine also that MRel = Monastic Religious. Does that number mean we have 16 Monastic communities or 16 monastics? I'm quite curious about these numbers. And I am of course referring to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church Eparchy of Newton numbers. I'm kind of sad though that we had lost just over 2000 parishioners since it's height in '05. Manuel, The abbreviations are explained at the bottom of each page, but they are: Bish=Bishops Par=Parishes SecPr=Secular Priests (Eparchial or Patriarchal Clergy, as the case may be) RelPr=Religious Priests (those of the monastic orders or religious orders, depending on the Church in question) MRel=Male Religious (monks who are not hieromonks, religious brothers - rare in most of the Churches) FRel=Female Religious (nuns or sisters) PD=Permanent Deacons Sem=Seminarians With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton: * The 2 Bishops is incorrect. The number should reflect the number of bishops resident in the eparchy (unless the definition has changed sometime recently) and 3 would be the correct number - Archbishop Cyril (Eparch), Bishop John (Eparch Emeritus), and Bishop Nicholas (Auxiliary Emeritus). * The 16 Male Religious is a number that I can't fathom. Monks in the Eparchy who are not hieromonks are very few in number. I can't perceive of any other than at St Basil's in Methuen (where I believe there may be 1 or 2 presently) and the community in PA (which would have to have grown markedly in recent times to account for such a figure). I don't believe that there have been any religious brothers in the Eparchy since Brother Domenic, of blessed memory, was ordained to the presbyterate many years ago. Perhaps Father Economos Roman, Father Archimandrite Andre, or Deacon Ed might have a thought on where this number came from. * The 35 parishes is, I think, low by a few, though without doing a physical count and separating parishes from missions, I won't swear to it. The other numbers are certainly in the ballpark. Female religious and seminarians are both accurate, unless there has been a recent change. As regards the drop from 2005 to now, note that the 2005 figure represented an almost equal spike from the last prior year cited (2000). (In actuality, 29K was the reported number in 2004 and 2005, with it dropping back to 27K in 2006.) I suspect that the 29K was the result of an inaccurate counting or reporting and that the 26K-27K figure that has otherwise been consistent through the decade is the more accurate number. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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As I'm looking over these numbers, I'm very curious about an anomaly. Why are the Melkite Greek Catholics 3 million smaller than the Ukranian Greek Catholics when 20 years ago there were 20k more Melkites than than Ukrainians? Manuel, 20 years ago, the UGCC and several other of the Churches in the East European nations were only just emerging from the yoke of communism and having been suppressed for many, many decades, Their hierarchies and jurisdictions were in no way able to do much more than estimate their numbers. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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[...]
With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:
[...]
* The 16 Male Religious is a number that I can't fathom. Monks in the Eparchy who are not hieromonks are very few in number. I can't perceive of any other than at St Basil's in Methuen (where I believe there may be 1 or 2 presently) and the community in PA (which would have to have grown markedly in recent times to account for such a figure). I don't believe that there have been any religious brothers in the Eparchy since Brother Domenic, of blessed memory, was ordained to the presbyterate many years ago. Perhaps Father Economos Roman, Father Archimandrite Andre, or Deacon Ed might have a thought on where this number came from.
[...]
Many years,
Neil The number of male religious (monastics) in the Annuario Pontificio includes the number of religious priests (hieromonks). Therefore, you have to subtract the number of religious priests from the number of male religious to get the number of male religious who are not priests. For the Eparchy of Newton, 14 religious priests subtracted from 16 male religious gives 2 non-ordained male religious, probably novices or juniors at St. Basil's as you mention.
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[...]
With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:
* The 2 Bishops is incorrect. The number should reflect the number of bishops resident in the eparchy (unless the definition has changed sometime recently) and 3 would be the correct number - Archbishop Cyril (Eparch), Bishop John (Eparch Emeritus), and Bishop Nicholas (Auxiliary Emeritus).
[...]
Many years,
Neil Perhaps Father Roberson has left out retired auxiliary Bishops? If you use the Annuario Pontificio and want a list of retired auxiliary Bishops, you have to look through some 200 pages of titular Sees to find them, because they are not listed under the dioceses or eparchies where they used to serve.
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[...]
With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:
* The 2 Bishops is incorrect. The number should reflect the number of bishops resident in the eparchy (unless the definition has changed sometime recently) and 3 would be the correct number - Archbishop Cyril (Eparch), Bishop John (Eparch Emeritus), and Bishop Nicholas (Auxiliary Emeritus).
[...]
Many years,
Neil Perhaps Father Roberson has left out retired auxiliary Bishops? If you use the Annuario Pontificio and want a list of retired auxiliary Bishops, you have to look through some 200 pages of titular Sees to find them, because they are not listed under the dioceses or eparchies where they used to serve. LC, I have to admit not looking directly at a copy of AP for a long time. Although not listed under the jurisdictions (which I seem to remember was always the case), are they not counted in the enumeration tables? If not, I'd not expect Father to add them, since he just extracts data cells and prints them, not creating the numbers, only the formatting. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 15
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[...]
With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:
[...]
* The 16 Male Religious is a number that I can't fathom. Monks in the Eparchy who are not hieromonks are very few in number. I can't perceive of any other than at St Basil's in Methuen (where I believe there may be 1 or 2 presently) and the community in PA (which would have to have grown markedly in recent times to account for such a figure). I don't believe that there have been any religious brothers in the Eparchy since Brother Domenic, of blessed memory, was ordained to the presbyterate many years ago. Perhaps Father Economos Roman, Father Archimandrite Andre, or Deacon Ed might have a thought on where this number came from.
[...]
Many years,
Neil The number of male religious (monastics) in the Annuario Pontificio includes the number of religious priests (hieromonks). Therefore, you have to subtract the number of religious priests from the number of male religious to get the number of male religious who are not priests. For the Eparchy of Newton, 14 religious priests subtracted from 16 male religious gives 2 non-ordained male religious, probably novices or juniors at St. Basil's as you mention. LC, Thanks for the clarification on that - don't think I ever noticed or realized that they (religious priests) were being double-counted. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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[...]
With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:
* The 2 Bishops is incorrect. The number should reflect the number of bishops resident in the eparchy (unless the definition has changed sometime recently) and 3 would be the correct number - Archbishop Cyril (Eparch), Bishop John (Eparch Emeritus), and Bishop Nicholas (Auxiliary Emeritus).
[...]
Many years,
Neil Perhaps Father Roberson has left out retired auxiliary Bishops? If you use the Annuario Pontificio and want a list of retired auxiliary Bishops, you have to look through some 200 pages of titular Sees to find them, because they are not listed under the dioceses or eparchies where they used to serve. LC, I have to admit not looking directly at a copy of AP for a long time. Although not listed under the jurisdictions (which I seem to remember was always the case), are they not counted in the enumeration tables? If not, I'd not expect Father to add them, since he just extracts data cells and prints them, not creating the numbers, only the formatting. Many years, Neil As you know, the Annuario Pontificio has entries on all the dioceses/eparchies in the world in alphabetical order, from Aachen to Zrenjanin. Each entry contains biographical data on the diocesan/eparchial Bishop, the coadjutor Bishop (if any) and any Bishops emeriti. Each entry also lists the names and titular Sees of any active auxiliary Bishops. However, to learn more about an auxiliary Bishop, you have to look him up in the section on titular Sees further back in the book. And retired auxiliary Bishops are only found in the section on titular Sees. For example, you find the Eparchy of Newton on page 504 of the 2010 edition. Here you find the biographical data of Archbishop Cyrille Salim (Bustros) as the reigning Hierarch, and of Bishop John Adel (Elya) as the Bishop emeritus. To find Bishop Nicholas James (Samra), you have to turn to page 902 and the entry on the titular See of Gerasa [ en.wikipedia.org], where you will learn that he is Auxiliary emeritus of Newton. But the entry on the Eparchy of Newton itself gives you no clue that he exists, since he is retired.
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