0 members (),
1,799
guests, and
106
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,508
Posts417,509
Members6,161
|
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
Baptisms > Funerals = Good Funerals < Baptisms = Bad.
Of particular interest, and not captured in the data is the number of adult baptisms. When I attended a Ruthenian parish, these were exceedingly rare. I think my family and I accounted for 80% of these over a ten year period. On the other hand, at the Melkite parish I now attend, there are at least half a dozen or so adult baptisms each year, which, for a parish of about 200 people, is quite remarkable. In addition, our young families are a fecund lot, and we celebrate several baptisms each month--I would estimate more than thirty in a year. But I would attribute a lot of this to the dynamism of the pastor and that it is, in many respects, a convert parish.
Last edited by StuartK; 08/29/10 08:39 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405 |
Stuart points out the need to keep the ethnic patrimony, and I agree with him. I am also aware of the Slavonic character and origins of the OCA. Father Alexander Schmemann discusses the tension between "National Pluralism and Canonical Unity" in his 1964 essay on "The Canonical Problem" [ jacwell.org] of Orthodoxy in America. I think what he says is still valid for Orthodoxy in America, and some of it may be relevant to Eastern Catholicism as well. Schmemann suggests that the parish can represent the ethnic tradition, while the diocese (eparchy) should ensure the canonical unity of the Church in one state or region. In other words, the parish may be ethnic, but the diocese (eparchy) should be multiethnic. Of course, the Orthodox in America have not been able to achieve this yet, and perhaps it is too much to ask the Greek Catholics to do so before the Orthodox. But I do think Schmemann's essay is worth reading and that it may point to the way forward.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405 |
Stuart, The dynamism of the Melkite Church is interesting. It suggests that the Melkites probably have a lot to contribute to Eastern Catholicism in America 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
Remember: there are lies, damned lies, statistics, and church statistics.
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405 |
Indeed, Father 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
The dynamism of the Melkite Church is interesting. It suggests that the Melkites probably have a lot to contribute to Eastern Catholicism in America It has that potential. But, at one time, so did the Ruthenian Church. Today, we had two, possibly three older children baptized. I have no idea why they had not been baptized previously, but they had a large family contingent with them. In the next couple of weeks, I anticipate three or four infant baptisms--it was a really cold winter with lots of snow. The parish keeps getting younger, which is a Good Thing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288 |
Dear Stuart,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
As I understand it, we go to the same parish. I unfortunately missed the baptism since I had to pick up my daughter for DL today from her mother. But something else I have noticed is that we have just as many deaths and memorial services after DL as we do baptisms. I think what helps (and I don't know what water they're drinking lol) are when there are twins that are getting baptized.
OT: I pray for the day that my daughter can get baptized. It's complicated to just put the whole story on here, just if you guys can keep her in prayer and her pagan mother (and by pagan I do not mean this vague cultural pagan that most people mean. I mean Isis goddess of Egypt worshiping pagan.)
Kyrie eleison,
Manuel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
Many of these memorial services are actually for the anniversaries of the repose of the departed. Today, we had a service for the 40th day memorial--but we commemorate the departed many, many times, so it seems like there are more deaths than there really are.
Look me up--I usually stand on the left side near the aisle, close to the front.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288 |
Stuart,
I'm the really tall guy with a tall beautiful 4 year old girl (though she probably looks older cuz of her size) I'm normal on the left side as well sitting in the second row with the deacon's family. I stand out like a sore thumb. I'm 6'6".I would hate to start asking ppl if they are you and they look at me like I'm crazy lol. If you can, I would appreciate if you can introduce yourself o me since it'll be easier for you to spot me ;-) . BTW, are you going to the Middle Eastern Food Festival?
hmmmmmm a bit off topic I believe you and I are going. I'm pm you lol
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 15
Global Moderator Member
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 15 |
Manuel, I'd been curious as to which parish you attended, but didn't want to pry. Based on some of your comments, I made an educated guess - and find I was correct  . That's a particularly vibrant parish and the clergy there are very committed. Prayers for your hopes to have your tall 4 year old baptized (from a Dad of all tall kids - except the 5'8" one, who thinks herself a shrimp  ) Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288 |
Dear Neil,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
If you ever have a question, do not worry about asking, just be sure you want to know ;-) lol. I'm too good at going OT but since you brought up the priests, I asked Fr. Joseph yesterday about the things I have asked on here and he gave a great "eastern" answer . . . which was no straight answer at all lol.
Kyrie eleison,
Manuel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 15
Global Moderator Member
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 15 |
Father Joe is an accomplished master at speaking byzantine  .
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450 |
The U.S. TFR is just about 2.0 today. With immigration, we are slightly above replacement. This is pretty much the first time TFR has fallen below 2.1 in the United States.
But you are wrong about the age at which women in this country used to give birth. In fact, throughout our history, most women married for the first time at 22-24, while most men married for the first time at ages 24-26. From 1945 until the middle 1960s, women married at 18-20, while men married at 20-22, significantly lower than the historical norm.
There are several reasons for this. First of all, men usually did not marry until they could support a family, which meant they had to have time to get a job and build up savings. As men typically want to marry women a couple of years younger than them, this explains the ages at which men and women married for most of U.S. history, from the colonial period through the Second World War.
What happened between 1945 and 1965? Coming out of World War II with the only intact industrial economy, the U.S. enjoyed unprecedented prosperity that featured a plethora of semi-skilled and high paying jobs that could be filled by men right out of high school. Most of them were also unionized, so they had stability and job security. By the time they were 22, they had enough money in the bank to buy a car and a house, and support a wife--a wife a couple of years younger than them.
After 1965, things began to return to normal, as the rest of the world's economies recovered and the U.S. had to become economically competitive again. The semi-skilled, high-paying jobs disappeared, the high paying jobs required more training (hence time to learn), and the average age at which men married moved back towards its historical average of 26--where it stands today.
The main difference between now and the past is the age at which women marry for the first time, which is now also around 26. Women had always participated in the workplace (except for the 1950s), but now women are filling jobs which require as much training and education as those filled by men. When women finally get around to marrying, they are having trouble finding men in the desirable demographic who want to marry them--men are still looking for women in their early 20s.
Women haven't done themselves any favors by buying into the feminist theory of sexual liberation (a phenomenon that began before the Pill, as I have written for First Things, but which the Pill accelerated). By frittering away their time in casual dalliances, women reduce their perceived value as stable life partners by the men who drift in and out of their lives--and they never learned about living in a long-term relationship, which explains why they ditch at the first opportunity when the going gets rough.
Men, for their part, simply act like pigs. Or, to mix metaphors, why buy the cow when the milk is free? If women make themselves available sexually outside of marriage, men will take advantage of them. And time is much kinder to men in that regard than it is to women: men get older, but they also can become more attractive to younger women. Older women seldom become more attractive to younger men, and men their own age are busy chasing after available younger women. Stuart, I don't want to take this off-topic,a gain, but do you ahve a source for this? Just curious, as these numbers would seem to probably only cover America post 1900, when America was greatly moving away from an agricultural society to an industrial one. I would think that this had a lot to do with the age of marriage and having children.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 288 |
Dear Danman,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
I have read/heard that if it weren't for all the immigrants (legal or otherwise) America would be in the same dismal decline that Europe is in. In 50 years I had heard from a report on tv, I'll try to find a link, countries like Germany will be Muslim nations because the native Germans are dieing more than giving birth. They cannot replenish themselves while the Muslim immigrants are having a plethora of kids. Like us good Catholics shiould ;-)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
Not quite that bad. Native-born fertility is about 1.8, immigrant fertility is about 2.1. and surplus immigration accounts for the remaining growth.
Muslim fertility rates in the West tend to come down very close to European norms by the second generation. In many Muslim countries, fertility rates have been coming down for years. In Iran, of all places, a government sponsored contraceptive program reduced the TFR from 4.1 to 1.7 in just a decade (assuming you can believe Iranian government figures).
|
|
|
|
|