www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fr. Gabriel Bunge (OSB) has been received into Holy Orthodoxy

Glory to Jesus Christ!

No worries Philip. No thunder stolen. We are in more need of His mercy than we are aware.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Isn't it the magisterium (Pope and the bishops in union with him) who has the final authority of what the Church truly believes?

As for a Roman congregation not having authority over the declarations of an Eastern church,are you sure of that?

Here is an example of a Roman congregation having authority over a decision made by the Ukrainian Catholic Church:

From Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org] :


Encouraging Eastern Catholics to remain true to their "authentic theological, spiritual, liturgical, and disciplinary patrimony" does not mean to deny truths revealed by God through the magisterium.

Pope John Paul II of blessed memory strongly encouraged Eastern Catholics to be faithful to their "authentic theological, spiritual, liturgical, and disciplinary patrimony". Yet, this is the same Pope who attached indulgences to the Akathist and other Eastern Catholic prayers so that Eastern Catholics may gain indulgences while using prayers from their own liturgical tradition and not from the Latin Church.

Can you give me a specific official statement when the Holy See has commanded or implied that Eastern Catholics are to be "Orthodox in communion with Rome"? The claims are made but where is the proof?

I suggest that everyone should stop looking at the letter of the canonical law and look at how the Catholic Church actually operates. That resolves most of the problems.

Q: Are Indulgences transferrable? What I mean is if you prayed the Akathist, but didn't want the indulgence could you give it to a Roman Catholic who wanted it?

No one is denying that Rome doesn't attempt to force latinization upon the eastern churches, even today, rather what people are saying is they resist the attempt. This is much the same as what happened pre-schism when the bishop of Rome exceed his bounds.

Actually, we inflict much more latinization upon ourselves than is forced on us by Rome. Rome has had, on several occasions, to tell us to knock it off and get with the plan. Alas! Some people really do think RC means "Really Catholic" and BC means "Barely Catholic", and continue to act as though they are nothing more than a ritual adjunct of the Roman Catholic Church.

Respectfully, I must strongly disgree with you about that. Problems do not get resolved but become complicated and lead to disunity.

Years ago, my parish became divided between those who identified themselves as "Eastern Catholics" and those who were "Orthodox in union with Rome". This lead to disunity and parishioners leaving. Eastern Catholics did not feel welcomed in their own parish until those who were OIUWR eventually left and formally became Orthodox.

And that has been my experience, those who identify as OIUWR eventually leave and become Eastern Orthodox.

A person who prays the Akathist or other prayer with an attached indulgence gains the indulgence for him/herself or can apply it for one who has fallen asleep in the Lord. It is not transferable to another living person.

A review of Church history shows most problems get resolved when people decide not to let themselves get bound by the letter of the law.


Good for them. The Catholic Church has foresworn uniatism, now we just need for Eastern Catholics to get on board. If there had not been a Melkite parish in my vicinity, I would most certainly have become Orthodox, because the Ruthenian Church will not allow its members to live the fullness of the Orthodox Tradition in comformity with the wishes of the Holy See.

So who is not obeying the Catholic Church? Those who wish to live in accordance with the Tradition? Or those who foreswear both the Tradition and the directives of the Holy See--which has been quite consistent for more than a century now?

Why would a Greek Catholic subscribe to a doctrine of soteriology which is not only alien to his authentic Tradition, but antithetical to that Tradition as well?

One need not say indulgences are heretical, but they are specific to the Latin Church, make sense only in the context of Latin doctrine, and have no place in our spirituality.

You will note, with interest, I hope, that the official Eastern Catholic catechism doesn't even mention indulgences, and gives only passing mention to purgatory (in a footnote, no less). Also, if you have read the three volumes, you will also note that they could be used in any Orthodox parish without any significant changes.

It would seem that official circles have, in theory, at least, come down on the side of "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".

It's funny, from my personal experience, those who identify themselves as OIUWR turn out to be former Roman Catholics who began to attend Byzantine Catholic parishes in the 1970's after the changes of Vatican II. Younger generations identify themselves as Catholic, embracing the fullness of the Catholic faith but wanting the richness of the Byzantine liturgical tradition.
My parish is attracting these younger generations and growing because of it.
They don't take seriously "Orthodox in union with Rome".


So what has more authority: the magisterium or Traditon? Isn't the magisterium the guardian of Tradition?

How do you explain the Melkite cathedrals throughout the world being places where Melkites can gain indulgences durng the Great Jubilee of 2000?

I was at a Byzantine Catholic cathedral on pilgrimage during the Jubilee Year in which we prayed for the gaining of an indulgence.

I am looking at -as you put it- how the Catholic Church actually operates.

That doesn't seem to come down on the side of "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"

God bless,

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it moves from conjecture to fact: "If the Synod affirms that we believe everything Orthodoxy teaches, then so we do" becomes The Synod affirms that we believe everything Orthodoxy teaches, and so we do. As a case in point:

Where? Did the Melkite's official statement even say that? Who in fact was quoted in that statement? Bishop Elias? No. VCII and Pope JP II? Yes. What did the Melkite's statement actually say about Rome and the Orthodox?

I have not heard the details of this particular event. That said the customary practice of the Russian Church as laid down in the Great Book of Needs is that Roman Catholics are received by Holy Confession and a formal Profession of Faith including explicit renunciation of whatever heresies or schisms to which the convert was previously attached. This is followed by Holy Chrismation and completed by reception of Holy Communion. In the case of clergy converting the rule is that once Chrismated they are normally vested, as the Mystery of Chrismation makes whole their Holy Orders in the same way it does their Baptism.

In ICXC
John

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Griego,

I think one of the issues, from what I am seeing is whether or not Eastern Catholics accept the latter 14 Councils as Ecumenical or Synods of the West. Is there any authoritative statement, I'm curious, as to whether any of the Eastern Catholic Churches had talked, mention or came out with any proclamation on this? If the 14 latter Councils are in the end not considered Ecumenical, which I have read several posts on here that certain Popes, including this one, has mentioned or shown signs that this is their opinion. But as for the Eastern Catholics at least, is there any document talking about this?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Sorry for having taken things so OT. I don't remember if it was my questioning, but I think it is that has taken this so OT. Good to see there are still people that are interested in the original topic lol.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel