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Yes, even good Popes can lead people astray. Yes, to the point, if Popes then certainly an Archbishop Zoghby. I am sure you have some objective criteria for thinking His Grace was in error. Catholic Church history and pronouncements. And "the Pope said so" doesn't qualify. Nor then "Archbishop Zoghby said so." In any case, were that true, the Holy Father has all sorts of remedies, pastoral and canonical, at his disposal. There was a diplomatic but unfavorable Vatican response to Archbishop Zoghby's initiatives. The Melkite Initiative--for it is now the official policy of the Melkite synod--continues apace. I've read different interpretations of what the official Melkite position actually is. Solid documentation would be of interest but, please -- an I say so response "doesn't qualify."
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Dear ajk, Glory to Jesus Christ! I've read different interpretations of what the official Melkite position actually is. Solid documentation would be of interest but, please -- an I say so response "doesn't qualify." Here is your official statement: https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbt...rd/4/Number/352089/what/showflat/fpart/3The holy Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church met in Rabweh, Lebanon July 22-27, 1996 and, after studying the question of unity within the Patriarchate of Antioch, declared that communicatio in sacris = worship in common is possible today and that the ways and means of its application would be left to the joint decisions of the two Antiochian Church Synods - Melkite Greek Catholic and Greek Orthodox. The Synod of thirty-four bishops and four general superiors under the presidency of Patriarch Maximos V (Hakim) deliberated extensively on the topic of church unity particularly within the Antiochian Patriarchate which has been divided since 1724, and issued a document titled, Reunification of the Antiochian Patriarchate. This document is part of the official minutes of the Synod and was made public on August 15, 1996 in the Middle East. It includes eight points about the unity of the Churches and was sent by the Catholic Patriarch Maximos V to the Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius IV (Hazim). It emphasizes that there is an openness on the part of the Melkite Church to heal the division of 1724 and all the difficulties that followed in order to preserve our one heritage and one worship which is the fount of one belief. The Fathers of the Synod affirmed that unity was not a victory of one church over another, or one church going back to the other, or the melting of one church into the other, but rather putting an end to the separation between brothers... This unity has become possible today because of the extensive work of the Joint International Theological Commission between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. They site [sic] four specific documents of the International Theological Commission and look forward to the study that this commission will make on the role of the Bishop of Rome in the church and in the ecumenical councils. Emphasis is placed on church unity as it existed in the first millennium when East and West were one. The document quotes Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Ut Unum Sint - That All May Be One: The Catholic Church desires nothing less than full communion between East and West. She finds inspiration for this in the experience of the first millennium (#16). The Melkite Synod sees that the church of the first millennium could be the model for unity today. The Synod strongly affirms its full communion with the Apostolic See of Rome and that this communion would not be ruptured. The Fathers offered their thanks to the International Theological Commission as well as the Joint Synodal Commissions recently reestablished by Patriarch Maximos V and Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius IV. They offer special thanks to Archbishop Elias Zoghby whose 1995 Profession of Faith was the major force for reopening dialogue with the Orthodox brothers. Zoghby, the former archbishop of Baalbek and a long-time leader among the Melkite bishops, offered this brief statement in 1995 and it was subscribed to by 24 of the 26 bishops present at the 1995 Holy Synod: 1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. 2. 2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation. This brief profession and its subsequent explanation became the basis for the 1996 Synods discussion on unity. The Fathers delegated the Synod Ecumenical and Theological Commission to deeply research the ways of the reunification, and discuss its canonical and pastoral implications, and to hold joint conferences and conventions to include faithful of both churches (Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholic) on the path towards this unity. Their prayer is that of Our Lord Jesus Christ to his Father: that they may be one, just as we are...that the world may know that you have sent me. (Jn 17: 21-23) The Melkite Greek Catholic Church is a patriarchal church in communion with Rome and is considered a sui juris church within the Catholic communion It follows the traditions of the Greek or Byzantine Church of Antioch. Its patriarch carries the title of Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, of Alexandria and of Jerusalem. The Church is based in the Middle East with the patriarchal see presently in Damascus, Syria. There are sixteen eparchies or dioceses in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Israel and Egypt. Outside the Middle East there are dioceses in the United States of America, Canada, Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico and Australia, with vicariates in Western Europe and Argentina. ____________________ This document was issued by the Melkite Greek Catholic Holy Synod, meeting in Rabweh, Lebanon, July 1996. It was released to the public on August 15, 1996 - the feast of the Dormition of the holy Mother of God. It appears in the minutes of the above mentioned Synod, dated and signed on Saturday, July 27, 1996 by the Patriarch, 31 archbishops and bishops, and 4 general superiors, whose names and titles are included at the end of the document. Reunification of the Antiochian Patriarchate The Fathers of the Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarchate convened in Rabweh, Lebanon July 22 to July 27, 1996 and studied the documents presented by the Patriarchal Commission established by His Beatitude Maximos V Hakim on March 25, 1996. This Commission consists of Archbishops Elias Zoghby and Cyril Salim Bustros; the patriarch asked them to do whatever is necessary through communications and meetings with the Orthodox Patriarchal and Synodal Commission to reach Antiochian unity through oneness of heart, and to find ways for the two churches - Melkite Greek Catholic and Greek Orthodox - to return to communion with each other and into unity within one Antiochian Patriarchate. His Beatitude Patriarch Maximos V and Fathers of the Holy Synod are happy to announce the following: 1.They thank His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim and the Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church for their concern on this subject, and the brotherly announcement they gave concerning this unity in the final communique of their Holy Synod convened October 16-22, 1995. They share what the Orthodox said [at this synod] that since receiving the mutual representatives in the 1974 synod with great love, we look forward together to Antiochian unity preserving our one heritage and one worship which is the fount of one belief. 2.They all anxiously look forward to the day when the Melkite Greek Catholics and the Greek Orthodox in the Antiochian Patriarchate return to being one church and one patriarchate. They affirm to all that this reunification does not mean a victory of one church over the other, or one church going back to the other, or the melting of one church into the other. Rather, it means putting an end to the separation between the brothers that took place in 1724 and led to the existence of two separate independent patriarchates, and returning together to the unity that prevailed in the one Antiochian Patriarchate before the separation. 3.They see that this reunification has become possible today through the progress in the communion of faith that has taken place through the grace of God in the recent years on the international level through the Joint International Theological Commission between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. This Commission produced four documents announcing the unity of faith in basic doctrines: The Mystery of the Church and of the Eucharist in the Light of the Mystery of the Holy Trinity (1982), Faith, Sacraments and the Unity of the Church (1988), Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion (Balamand 1993). They consider their task of reestablishing communion within the Church of Antioch a part of reestablishing full communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches on the international level. 4.The Joint Commission will discuss one point further, that is, the role of the Bishop of Rome in the church and in the ecumenical councils. On this subject the Fathers of the Synod adopt what was stated in the Second Vatican Council: to give due consideration to the character of the relations which obtained between them and the Roman See before separation (Decree on Ecumenism #14); and also what His Holiness Pope John Paul II said in his encyclical That All May Be One - Ut Unum Sint (#61): The Catholic Church desires nothing less than full communion between East and West. She finds inspiration for this in the experience of the first millennium. Concerning the primacy of the Bishop of Rome the Fathers declare that they are inspired by the understanding in which East and West lived in the first millennium in the light of the teachings of the seven ecumenical councils, and they see that there is no reason for the separation to continue because of that primacy. 5.Based on that unity in the essence of the faith [that existed in the first millennium], the Fathers of the Holy Synod that the communicatio in sacris is possible today, and that they accept it, leaving the ways and means of its application to the joint decisions of the two church synods - Melkite Greek Catholic and Greek Orthodox. 6.The Fathers of the Holy Synod announce they will remain in full communion with the Apostolic Church of Rome and at the same time will work out with her precisely what is required for them to enter into communion with the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 7.They commend the efforts that the ecumenical leaders of our church have made especially Archbishop Elias Zoghby who has been laboring for this more than twenty years. They thank the members of the Joint International Theological Commission for their accomplishments, and ask them to continue the dialogue on this subject. The Fathers delegated the Synodal Ecumenical and Theological Commission to deeply research the ways of the unification, and discuss its canonical and pastoral implications, and to hold joint conferences and conventions to include the faithful of both churches on the path toward this unity. 8.Finally, they ask all their faithful to join with them in prayer so that the holy will of God be fulfilled in all of us and that the prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ to his heavenly Father be accomplished: that they may be one, just as we are one...that the world may know that you have sent me. (Jn 17:21-23) Kyrie eleison, Manuel
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Dear ajk, Glory to Jesus Christ! I've read different interpretations of what the official Melkite position actually is. Solid documentation would be of interest but, please -- an I say so response "doesn't qualify." Here is your official statement: https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbt...rd/4/Number/352089/what/showflat/fpart/3The holy Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church met in Rabweh, Lebanon July 22-27, 1996 and, ... Glory forever! Not exactly, and that is the issue. The entire first part is not an official statement that I can tell. That part is: The holy Synod of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church met in Rabweh, Lebanon July 22-27, 1996 and, ...
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Outside the Middle East there are dioceses in the United States of America, Canada, Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico and Australia, with vicariates in Western Europe and Argentina.
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Hola Manuel, Here are the responses from Rome and the Antiochian Orthodox Church in case you have not had the opportunity to read them. The response from the Antiochians is to the point: In October, 1996 the Holy Synod of the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarchate issued a statement which included these concerns on the Melkite proposal:
"In this regard, our Church questions the unity of faith which the Melkite Catholics think has become possible. Our Church believes that the discussion of this unity with Rome is still in its primitive stage. The first step toward unity on the doctrinal level, is not to consider as ecumenical, the Western local councils which the Church of Rome, convened, separately, including the First Vatican Council.
"And second the Melkite Catholics should not be obligated to accept such councils. Regarding inter-communion now, our Synod believes that inter-communion cannot be separated from the unity of faith. Moreover, inter-communion is the last step in the quest for unity and not the first."
In a letter to the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, Metropolitan Philip also said:
"Please be advised that, while we pray for unity among all Christians, we cannot and will not enter into communion with non-Orthodox until we first achieve the unity of faith. As long as this unity of faith is not realized, there cannot be intercommunion. We ask you to adhere to the instructions which you receive from our office and hierarchs." The Antiochian Orthodox Church does not see Melkites as Orthodox, no matter how many times Melkites claim to be "Orthodox in union with Rome". Here is the response from Rome: Congregation for the Eastern Churches
Prot. No. 251/75
June 11, 1997
His Beatitude
Maximos V HAKIM
Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarch of Antioch and of all the East,
of Alexandria and of Jerusalem.
Your Beatitude,
The news of the project for "rapprochement" between the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate and the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch has given rise to various echoes and comments in the public opinion.
The Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith, the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity have made an effort to study and closely examine the areas which fall within their competence in this domain; and the heads of these Dicasteries have been charged by the Holy Father to express some considerations to Your Beatitude.
The Holy See is greatly interested in and encourages initiatives which favor the road to a complete reconciliation of the Christian Churches. She appreciates the motivation behind the efforts undertaken for several decades by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate, which is trying to hasten the coming of this full communion so greatly desired. The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches recognizes the duty for every Christian (Can. 902), which becomes for the Eastern Catholic Churches a special duty (munus) (Can. 903), whose exercise will be governed "through special norms of particular law while the Roman Apostolic Church functions as the moderator for the universal church" (Can. 904).
This is all the more true for two communities which see themselves as being closely united because of the ties of common origin and common ecclesiastical tradition, as well as by a long experience of common initiatives which no doubt place them into a privileged situation of proximity.
The Church's desire is to find adequate ways and means to progress further along the road of brotherly understanding and, to encourage new structures which further such progress towards full communion.
Pursuing such goals, Your Patriarchate is motivated by a sensibility and a knowledge of the situation and an experience which are peculiarly its own. The Holy See desires to contribute to this process by expressing some considerations which she believes will eventually help the future progress of this initiative.
The Dicasteries involved appreciate very much that common pastoral initiatives are undertaken by Catholics and Orthodox, according to the instructions found in the Directory for the application of the principles and norms for Ecumenism, especially in the areas of Christian formation, of education, a common effort in charity, and for the sharing of prayer when this is possible.
As to experiences of a theological nature, it is necessary to labor patiently and prudently, without precipitation, in order to help both parties to travel along the same road.
The first level in this sharing concerns the language and the categories employed in the dialogue:one must be very careful that the use of the same word or the same concept is not used to express different points of view and interpretations of a historical and doctrinal nature, nor lends itself to some kind of oversimplification.
A second level of involvement necessitates that the sharing of the content of the dialogue not be limited only to the two direct participants: the Patriarchates of the Catholic Greek-Melkites and the Orthodox of Antioch, but that it involve the Confessions with whom the two Patriarchates are in full communion: the Catholic communion for the
former and the Orthodox for the latter. Even the Orthodox ecclesiastical authorities of the Patriarchate of Antioch have brought forth a similar preoccupation. This global implication also will permit averting the risk that some initiatives, meant to promote the full communion at the local level, might give rise to a lack of understanding or suspicions beyond the generosity of the intentions.
Now we consider the elements contained in the profession of faith of his Excellency Kyr Elias Zoghby, Greek-Melkite Catholic Archbishop emeritus of Baalbek, signed in February 1995, and to which numerous hierarchs of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Synod have adhered.
It is clear that this Patriarchate is an integral part of the Christian East whose patrimony it shares. As to the Greek-Melkite Catholics declaring their complete adhesion to the teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the Orthodox Churches today are not in full communion with the Church of Rome, and that this adhesion is therefore not possible as long as there is not a full correspondence in the profession and exercise of the faith by the two parties. Besides, a correct formulation of the faith necessitates a reference not only to a particular Church, but to the whole Church of Christ, which knows no frontiers, neither in space nor in time.
On the question of communion with the Bishops of Rome, we know that the doctrine concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff has experienced a development over time within the framework of the explanation of the Church's faith, and it has to be retained in its entirety, which means from its origins to our day. One only has to think about what the first Vatican Council affirmed and what Vatican Council II declared, particularly in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium Num. 22 and 23, and in the Decree on ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio Number 2.
As to the modalities for exercising the Petrine ministry in our time, a question which is distinct from the doctrinal aspect, it is true that the Holy Father has recently desired to remind us how "we may seek--together, of course--the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned" (Ut unum sint, 95); however, if it is legitimate to also deal with this on a local level, it is also a duty to do this always in harmony with a vision of the universal Church. Touching this matter, it is appropriate to be reminded that in any case, "The Catholic Church, both in her praxis and in her solemn documents, holds that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is--in God's plan--an essential requisite of full and visible communion" (Ut unum sint, 97).
As to the various aspects of communicatio in sacris, it is necessary to maintain a constant dialogue in order to understand the meaning of the current regulation in force, in the light of underlying theological presuppositions; premature, unilateral initiatives are to be avoided, where the eventual results may not have been sufficiently considered, they could produce serious consequences for other Eastern Catholics, especially for those living in the same region.
In summary, the fraternal dialogue undertaken by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Partriarchate will be better able to serve the ecumenical dialogue to the degree that it strives to involve the entire Catholic Church to which it belongs in the maturing of new sensitivities. There is good reason to believe that the Orthodox in general so share the same
worry, due also to the obligations of communion within their own body.
The Dicasteries involved are ready to collaborate in order to further the exchange of verifications and echoes; they express their satisfaction for these meetings which have been held on this subject with the representatives of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Church, and they hope and wish that these meetings continue and intensify in the future.
Not doubting at all that Your Beatitude would want to share these ideas, we beg you to accept the expression of our fraternal and cordial greetings.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger, Achille Card. Silvestrini, Edward Card. Cassidy Rome has said that adhesion to the statement that Melkites believe everything Eastern Orthodoxy teaches is not possible, saying that one cannot be "Orthodox in communion with Rome". Melkites must adhere to all that Our Lord has revealed in regards to the authority and primacy of the Pope of Rome and that includes papal infallibility and universal primacy.
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Catholic Church history and pronouncements. Circular reasoning always seems to be a good fallback for the papalist position.
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Dear ajk, I apologize for the the link. I do not know what happened. Here is the correct link: http://www.melkite.org/sa3.htmThe top part is talking about the Synod itself and the bottom part is the document produced and signed by the Patriarch, 31 Archbishops and Bishops and 4 General Superiors. This document produced by the synod is also based on Archbishop Zoghby's proclamation of faith: 1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. 2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation. And at that time, before this Holy Synod in '96, 24 out of 26 Bishops had signed this proclamation of faith at the '95 Holy Synod. Kyrie eleison, Manuel
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Dear ajk, I apologize for the the link. I do not know what happened. Here is the correct link: http://www.melkite.org/sa3.htmThe top part is talking about the Synod itself and the bottom part is the document produced and signed by the Patriarch, 31 Archbishops and Bishops and 4 General Superiors. This document produced by the synod is also based on Archbishop Zoghby's proclamation of faith: 1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. 2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation. And at that time, before this Holy Synod in '96, 24 out of 26 Bishops had signed this proclamation of faith at the '95 Holy Synod. Kyrie eleison, Manuel The top part, all interesting but unofficial -- a press release. The official response starts at "Reunification of the Antiochian Patriarchate." That is "the official policy of the Melkite synod." Not found in that official statement: This document produced by the synod is also based on Archbishop Zoghby's proclamation of faith:
1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.
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Archbishop Zoghby's proclamation of faith, IMHO, insults the Orthodox precisely because they are not in communion with Rome and find the Church of Rome to be in error, and would probably find it difficult to understand just how the Melkites believe everything they do. Secondly, the second part of the proclamation begs the great ecumenical question: Just what were those limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium? We might also ask if the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the West merit any consideration?
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"Orthodox in communion with Rome" is a rather silly claim particularly given that no "Orthodox" recognize them as such. The bottom line here is that you are who you in communion with. If you want to be Orthodox, then join the Orthodox Church. And no, the Pope is NOT Orthodox (I don't care how much lipstick you try to throw on that). If you want to be Catholic, that's fine too. Be Catholic. But please let's not insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting we are all in the same church. We are not. And it takes more than a sacramental understanding of Holy Communion to make one a member of the Church.
To those quoting Dominus Iesus, I thank you. It is an excellent and authoritative document outlining the position of the Catholic Church and one that I greatly respect. I say this as an Orthodox Christian who appreciates forthrightness and honesty, even when such create obstacles or contradict (as DI clearly does) the Orthodox Faith. Clarity is good and without it, serious dialogue is not possible.
All of which said, this reinforces my view that Rome and Orthodoxy have grown too far apart. The Antiochians are correct. Communion is the final declaration of a full unity of Faith on all essential matters of doctrine, not a stepping stone towards it. Rome will never renounce Vatican I or its various other doctrinal innovations and we will not accept them.
If and when Rome were to abjure the decrees of Vatican I (and Florence among others) and formally rescind the anathemas pronounced on the Orthodox I may have cause to reconsider my opinion. Until then I concur with the view of the Bulgarian Holy Synod in its decision to withdraw from the Ecumenical Dialogue as it serves no real purpose. We are just talking past each other.
Last edited by Ad Orientem; 09/02/10 04:29 AM.
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Discussion on the topic has been and remains lively. The expectation is that it will also remain civil and respectful of one another's differing opinions because - contrary to the opinion occasionally expressed - I much prefer not to have to exercise the edit key.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Dear Utroque, It is not my intention to offend by bringing these things up, but to try my best to understand the situation. But something you said made me think of a troubled time in the early history of the Church. You said: Archbishop Zoghby's proclamation of faith, IMHO, insults the Orthodox precisely because they are not in communion with Rome and find the Church of Rome to be in error Allow me to state my thought in a question; were we not still in union as we were fighting through the Arian heresy which I understand had almost overcome the Church because of how much it had infiltrated and spread? Or did they cut off union with every parish/church that had accepted that heresy? Kyrie eleison, Manuel
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Dear Ad Orientem, In reference to your opening line: "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is a rather silly claim particularly given that no "Orthodox" recognize them as such. It is my understanding that it is not entirely clear if the Melkite Antiochian Patriarchate ever actually separated from Rome until one section, I think because both Rome and Constantinople were tired of the ambiguous affiliation, officially proclaimed union with Rome and another proclaimed union with Constantinople. Until then, I understand that it is unclear that the Melkite Antiochian Patriarchate ever separated from Rome or Constantinople until then. Kyrie eleison, Manuel
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Does anyone know how Fr. Bunge was received into the Orthodox Church? I.e, was he re-baptized, re-chrismated, re-ordained (yes, I realize that the "re-" is theologically incorrect in all these cases, but you get my point), or did he just make a confession of faith?
What is the practice of the particular Church (Russian Orthodox, I presume) he was received into?
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The Holy See has implied that this is the desired outcome of communion, which is why we are commanded to be fully Orthodox in communion with Rome--that we might bear witness to a future reality. In Rome's response to the "Zoghby Initiative", the CDF stated the following: ...As to the Greek-Melkite Catholics declaring their complete adhesion to the teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the Orthodox Churches today are not in full communion with the Church of Rome, and that this adhesion is therefore not possible as long as there is not a full correspondence in the profession and exercise of the faith by the two parties. Besides, a correct formulation of the faith necessitates a reference not only to a particular Church, but to the whole Church of Christ, which knows no frontiers, neither in space nor in time. The Holy See has never commanded nor implied that Eastern Catholics be "Orthodox in communion with Rome". As it states above, it is not possible.
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The Roman Curia, even the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, is just a Roman congregation and does not have real authority over our Patriarch and Synod of Bishops. The Patriarch and Synod have the final say in what the Melkite Church believes and what it does not. If the Synod affirms that we believe everything Orthodoxy teaches, then so we do.
Rome has always commanded and implied, at least on the official level, that Eastern Catholics should be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." They've always encourage Eastern Catholics to remain true to their authentic theological, spiritual, liturgical, and disciplinary patrimony. Eastern Catholics are the ones who have denied themselves out of fear of not appearing "Catholic enough." But the terms of communion any time an Eastern Orthodox Church has reestablished communion with Rome have always been that we would remain true to ourselves and not be bound by anything that is outside of our patrimony.
Not to steal Manuel's thunder, but I'm going to have to repeat,
"Kyrie Eleison"
ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip
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