www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fr. Gabriel Bunge (OSB) has been received into Holy Orthodoxy

The allowing of indulgences is a pastoral concession, many people over the course of two hundred odd years having come to adopt alien practices, mainly because of what was once called the praestantia ritus latini.

Think of allowing indulgences as on par with the old indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in the Latin Church. But it is neither taught nor encouraged.

Until the promulgation of the Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Eastern Churches Orientalium ecclesiarum, there were no "Eastern Catholic Churches", only "rites of the Roman Catholic Church". As mere "ritual adjuncts" of the Latin Church, utterly dependent upon the Propaganda fide, they had no independent voice, and their very existence was considered to be an example of "dispensation" from the norm.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Stuart,

In your statement:


Do you mean that that is how the Roman Church related to the Eastern Churches? Did the Eastern Churches also view themselves like that or as Churches proper?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

I accept this as clarification on the 'forced latinization,' and concede your point. However, as is evidence by the dissenting opinion on this thread Rome remains a fickle mistress, giving with one hand while taking with the other (or attempting to).

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear ByzBob,

Because of your comment:


I'm curious, which opinion is the dissenting opinion?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

In the context of my comments I meant those dissenting from the notion that one can be Orthodox in union (communion) with Rome. That is not to infer, necessarily, that they are wrong, merely that the are not in agreement with the notion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear ByzBob,

That's actually not how I understood it lol. I thought you meant there was an obvious majority of one opinion over the other. Thanks for the clarification.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Indulgences a pastoral concession? First time I've heard that! Throwing in some Latin still doesn't make it plausible.

Indulgences are still taught and encouraged. We've had the Year of St. Paul and the Year of the Priest with their respective indulgences.

From what Melkite Bishop John Elya, eparch emeritus of Newton, has responded publicly about Eastern Catholics and indulgences [melkite.org], indulgences are part of the patrimony of the Melkite Church.

He has never been told to retract his response either from Rome or from the Melkite Holy Synod.

Oh, yeah, Bishop John. Lovely man, but when you consider that he was the only active Melkite bishop who refused to sign the Zoghby Confession, you get an idea of where he fits in.

When you consider how frequently the Eparchy of Newton alters the content of its web site, I think you can discount any particular importance to the presence of Bishop John's little note. Nothing much has been added to that feature in years.

By the way, if you do not know what the praestantia ritus latini was (still is, in the minds of a few, I suppose), I suggest you look it up. It is essential to understanding the development of the Eastern Catholic Churches and the phenomenology of uniatism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Stuart,

Bishop John Elya is alive yes? So did he retire by coming to the age of retirement or was there another reason for the change of Bishops for the Newton Eparchy?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

PS: Also, is there any good Q&A done by any other Bishop that is as clear and concise as Bishop Emeritus John Elya but that in your opinion is more orthodox (I did the little "o" on purpose here) ? Thanks

I don't see what this has to do with the conversion of Hieromonk Gabriel (Bunge) to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Of course, he is right to follow his conscience. And of course, Catholics are right to disagree with his conscientious choice. He has made a choice which necessarily breaks the vows he took as a monk of the Order of Saint Benedict and as a priest of the Catholic Church. Even so, he is right to follow his conscience, as he sees it, though he may be wrong. This is one of the great paradoxes of human freedom.

All we can do (Orthodox and Catholics) is to pray for him and wish him well.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Latin,

If that comment was towards me, I ask because Griego Catolico put the Bishop Emeritus' Q&A as evidence. So, I just wish to make sure I have my bearings right about the good Bishop Emeritus and to see if there is a different Q&A from a different Bishop that talks on these topics.

If that comment was not towards me, then don't worry about everything I just said LOL.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Yes, I know exactly where he fits in: with those bishops of Church history who refused to sign statements or make declarations that went against the teaching of the Church. It was always the small remnant that won out in the end.

Again, Bishop John hasn't been commanded to retract what he has written.

Neither has Patriarch Gregorios.

Bishop John reached the mandatory retirement age--a requirement that does not really exist in the Eastern Churches. The better question is why he was not replaced by the most obvious and best qualified candidate for his job.