www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fr. Gabriel Bunge (OSB) has been received into Holy Orthodoxy

Francis, my brother,

John has already addressed this in terms of the usual praxis of the Russian Orthodox, but I wanted to affirm (based on info from some knowledgeable RO friends) that Father Gabriel was received by vesting, not re-ordained.

Many years,

Neil

I only know of one instance of reordination in this country, and that was ages ago. I doubt any (canonical) jurisdiction would re-ordain a Catholic priest today, whether Latin or Byzantine.

I'm surprised since past discussions had indicated to me that practices vary. I know of a former Melkite priest who was received (ROCOR, ~1994) by re-baptism (he did not seek ordination that I know and remains as a layman).

As I said, ages ago. The incident to which I referred also happened in that time frame--which is sixteen years ago.

Many canonical Orthodox Churches receive converts by baptizing them and clergy are ordained, including Catholics. This remains the practice of most of the Greek Churches outside of the EP and N. America. The Serbians do so as does ROCOR (still) and the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Ad Orientem,

Any idea why they do this? It feels so offensive. If they re-baptize Catholics then they are saying that Catholics are not even Christian. Catholics do not re-baptize those who were baptized by other Christian communities. Unless it is a community or religion that are not Christian at all (ie Mormons).

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

The Coptic Orthodox Church also rebaptizes Catholics because Pope Shenouda declared Catholic baptisms invalid due to lack of baptism by immersion.

So an RC priest doesn't require baptism and chrismation but a RC layman does?

I think before one faults the current situation amongst various Eastern Churches and how they receive those coming from the Catholic Church a little perspective would be good...

It was just 50 years ago (not long ago when one talking about such issues between Churches) that those coming to the Catholic Church from other Christian faiths were usually received by conditional baptism. In some places, this was even more recent.

To receive someone by conditional baptism or by Baptism or by Baptism is not to judge someone's previous experience as non-Christian. There are other issues involved here. People who submit to what is asked of them by the authority of the Church they are seeking to enter often do so as a matter of obedience to that authority.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear DT,

Thank you for posting that. Makes sense. And the 50 year change about the RC I imagine is something that happened post Vatican II eh.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Correction. The first sentence of the last paragraph should have read:

To receive someone by conditional baptism or by Baptism or by Chrismation is not to judge someone's previous experience as non-Christian.

The issue as I see it is inconsistency in practice, a practice that reflects a most important sacramental theology, that differs significantly among churches that are in communion.

A practice consistent with the underlying theology, respecting that baptism is only to be administered once.

But the judgment is "non-Christian" if accepted by baptism. It's at least a "not sure" if conditional.

What are those issues?

For Deacon Tony,

Yes, it's inconsistent. No quibble there.

I suppose one could say conditional baptisms were consistent with the underlying theology. I doubt they were generally perceived by the other Churches as an affirmation of the sacraments that had been received in the other Church before one became a Catholic. That was my point.

Is the judgment really that one had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism from another Christian faith? I don't think so. I think many Orthodox converts would disagree with you there.

Conditional Baptism may again become a practice in the Catholic Church when people are received who are baptised in the Name of the Creator, Savior, and Sanctifier--or some other combination that is substituted for the formula mandated by Scripture but which runs up against the feminist anti-God-as-Father mindset/political correctness that has taken hold in many eccelesial communities.

Bob

Conditional baptism is still the practice of the Catholic Church when warranted, but the overwhelming scruples of the past are now balanced in routinely accepting those water baptized in the Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism "in the Name of the Creator, Savior, and Sanctifier--or some other combination" is deemed invalid, as is baptism "in the name of Jesus," and no conditional formula would be used.