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As I've said on other threads, I am fairly new to Byzantine Catholicism, and have been attending a Ruthenian parish for the last few months.

In that time I have been doing a lot of reading and researching about the different churches, and one thing that I hear/read now and then is about the Latin tendencies of the Ruthenian Church. I am very aware of the RDL and that issue, but I am also wondering what else people can point to that are some specifics? Perhaps both in actual practices, as well as a general "inclination".

Perhaps another way of putting it is, what would people say the "symptoms" are of some of the examples of Latin influence in the (North?) American Ruthenian Church?

I am hoping that people's personal animosities not bubble up in discussing it, as I have read numerous times about parishes that get split between those who want more or less Latin influence, so I'm sure it's touchy for some, and I realize that de-Latinization is a gradual process regardless. But the Ruthenian Church keeps popping up as an exceptional case, it seems.

Thanks, as always, for all of the information and discussion this forum provides. I'm sure I would not be nearly as far along in this path without being able to visit here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear JJP,

Two examples of practice are from the Ruthenian parish a friend of mine is a member of in WA state. They have a ummmm, ohhh whats the word, ummm shrine? no, that does not feel right, but to that extent. I cannot think of the proper word, but they have a place of pray for Our Lady of Perpetual Help (I think it is that one, but it is one of the Latin "Our Lady's"). So as a parish they have a devotion to her as well as pray the Dominican Rosary (which is what your typical Rosary is, Dominican) as a group.

I'm sure though that Stuartk will be one of the best people to give you more info on that.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

A good intro IMO from a priest of the Ruthenian Church would be this article on page 9 [archeparchy.org] of the latest issue of Byzantine Catholic World by Fr. David Petras.

As to the specifics, I'll let others comment on those.

[quote]But the Ruthenian Church keeps popping up as an exceptional case, it seems. ]

JJP:
We seem to enjoy flailing ourselves.
It must be a sign of our peasant humility.

The problem is not with the Ruthenian people. They love our way. The problem is with the bishops and many of the clergy. They want to be first class Catholics and want nothing to do with the East. Another part of our clergy are simply lefties who want to emulate the leftie RCs and everything they did after Vatican II.

Another part of our clergy are simply lefties who want to emulate the leftie RCs and everything they did after Vatican II.

HEY! Getting kind of personal...I'm left-handed.

But where does this come from? Why is it more systemic with the bishops and some clergy of Ruthenians than perhaps other Eastern Catholic Churches?

I'm sure there are several reasons.

One is that the Ruthenian Church has had the most recent schisms into Orthodoxy of all the other Eastern Catholic Churches (1890s, 1930s). See:

Historical Mirror by Fr. John Slivka [archive.org] for more about the history.

This has, at times, created an "anti-Orthodox" feeling among some Ruthenians.

jjp:

Christ is in our midst!!

Step back and consider the history of the Ruthenian Church. The people lived perhaps farther to the West of other more traditonal Byzantine lands and peoples. They were a comparatively small group of Byzantines mixed with Latins in their immediate neighborhoods geographically. Politcal moves didn't help when they found themselves ruled by Latin rulers and wanted to "fit in." And probably lots more reasons that some of our brethren can fill in.

Some of my Ukrainian brethren explain the reason for some Latin practices in the UGCC as being a way to distinguish themselves as a separate group. On the one hand, they could tell the Latins that they were good Catholics but still Byzantine. And to the Russians they could say they were good Byzantines, but certainly not part of the Russian Empire.

Bob

Latinisation made the people different from the people who had stayed Orthodox. They lost their culture and replaced what they traded off with RC stuff from that era. In many places they really did end up with just another way of hearing mass. This is a current problem with the UGCC in Australia now. People who have no idea what their own tradtion is and have more in common with Latins (a mixture of pre and post Vat II practices). Certainly never going to be able to join with any Orthodox Church, as they would not know what to do be they clergy or laity. Sadly they are in their own little world and they dont even know it, they are so disconnected form the tradition.

One must also remember that most of the clergy were, until quite recently, educated in Latin seminaries using Latin texts promoting Latin doctrine with Latin methods. It would be surprising if, after being formed in such an environment, the Greek Catholic clergy were not latinized, or that their latinization would then spill downward to the laity. One of the major divides in the Greek Catholic Churches is between the senior clergy, formed in the Latin system, and the younger clergy, educated in accordance with the instructions of Vatican II to restore the fullness of the Byzantine-Orthodox patrimony.

I get the impression from numerous sources and my own observations that on a gradient of most latin influenced to least latin influenced you have the Ruthenians on the far left toward Roman practices the Ukrainians in the middle and the Melkites on the right. Is this generally accurate? The only pews I've ever seen were in ruthenian parishes as well. And this one Ruthenian priest spoke of how the orthodox practically hate them and how they feel caught between two worlds and must be loyal to Rome. I've heard nothing but fraternal love for the Orthodox from Melkite and Ukrainian priests.

LBL,

If the only Eastern churches in which you've seen pews are Ruthenian, you've led a very sheltered life, my friend. As to Latin influences, one can certainly find Ukrainians who will be on the far end of the continuum you describe. I'm also unconvinced that the level of such among my Ruthenian brethren is anywhere near what it once was.

As to your final statement, you say that the Ruthenians feel hated by the Orthodox but that the Ukrainians and Melkites love the Orthodox. There's a disconnect there. So, do the Ruthenians hate the Orthodox and the Ukrainians and Melkites feel loved by the Orthodox as well?

Apparently, your Ruthenian priest friend doesn't connect with any clergy or laity of ACROD, whose fraternal attitude toward their Ruthenian cousins is far from hateful.

Your perceptions are exaggerated.

Many years,

Neil

An interesting post that Ric Ballard wrote on http://easterncatholicspiritualrenewal.blogspot.com deals with the need to fully take part in one's own Rite if you are to get a fullness of experience from it. Ric is Ruthenian and proposes that those of the Latin Rite should practise and use what has organically grown within that tradition, as well as Byzantines fully use their Rite without mixing in bits and pieces of other Rites. I would say that whatever may seem theologically Latin about the Ruthenians grew organically through the history of those Christians and is valid.
We would also ask all Cathoic and Orthodox to join us in fasting and prayer on the first Friday of each month, praying specifically for a renewal of faith and a spirit of Evangelism within our Churches. We began having a moleben service on at 7pm on the first friday of each month for that purpose. We began in August.

Irish Melkite,

I've only been going to Byzantine Catholic parishes for 2 years. And have only really been a practicing christian for about 9 years. So forgive me if I have not been to many Byzantine parishes. I've only been to four total and these observations were based in conjunction with what people have said about each jurisdiction. I stand corrected on my suppositions.

Catechumen,

That is really neat. My best friend who is Roman Catholic recently just said that to me. That I need to stop having one foot in both ponds and commit. So I spoke with a priest and I am to be chrismated this month.