www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ruthenian latinizations

It came up because I put forth the idea that the Ruthenian Catholic Church does not seem to have a true counterpart in the Orthodox Church to the same degree that many other Eastern Catholic churches do, and that perhaps this coupled with the circumstances that it faced in the United States made it susceptible to a more pronounced tilt towards Roman Catholicism, both in practice and theology.

As far as church calendars go, that is a thought, but I'd be willing to bet that many would consider other aspects of church life, such as the Divine Liturgy, a higher priority.

Manuel,

I would say that Melkites, generally, use 'Deacon' rather than 'Father Deacon' as a form of address, although it's not uncommon to hear it used in the case of elderly deacons, such as Father Deacon Paul Lawlor, of blessed memory, who reposed a couple of years ago in his 90s.

Many years,

Neil

Patriarch Maximos IV (Saigh), of blessed memory, ably assisted by his theologians (who included Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), first Melkite Eparch in the US, and Father Archimandrite Orestes (Karame), both of blessed memory) essentially led the Eastern Church contingent at Vatican II. He is generally credited as having been responsible for much of the positive things for Eastern Catholicism which were accomplished there. He and his successor, Patriarch Maximos V (Hakim), also of blessed memory, were strong and outspoken leaders of their Church, as is His Beatitude Gregorios III (Laham).

Many years,

Neil

That was sarcasm, despite being an obvious Latinization, we all know the calendar will not change. Your second point is a curious one, as everyone knows the liturgy was recently drastically revised based on accounts I read here. Yet the Latinization conversation continues.

I would think at some point there's only so much change the laity will tolerate.

The use of the Gregorian calendar should, in no way, be considered or labeled a Latinization.


Yes, the RDL -- but we do hear and say The-ooo-toooo-kahs a lot now. That must count for something.

I guess you may say that by adding "Father" to Deacon we are getting away from "latinization."

Father Deacon Paul

Except that nobody know how to pronounce Theotokos.

Did you also read page 2 of this thread, where StuartK said:


"Change" does not automatically equal "de-latinization". And when change cements and legitimizes certain latinizations under the guise of restoration, the likelihood of permanent damage increases.



It's "change" that, ultimately, de-latinization is attempting to reverse. So in that sense, I certainly agree.

We took a Roman Catholic couple with us to DL last Sunday, they wanted to see what the Byzantine Church was like (they really enjoyed it).

As we were leaving, the wife asked very hesitantly, "Um... who is Theotokos? They kept talking about him after Mary." I couldn't stop laughing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!



Dear Stuart,

What do you mean no one knows how to pronounce Theotokos? Do we not say it correctly at Holy T or something?



ajk, I'm no expert or anything, but wouldn't it end with "kohs" rather than "kahs"? At least that is how I have heard it.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

If my own poor attempt at sarcasm did not convey that point, thank you for doing so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!



WOW, I would be hard pressed not to laugh as well. I would feel bad and concerned that they may feel insulted and not want to come back.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Glory to Jesus Christ!



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, that was sarcasm . . . opps he he

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

ajk


Yet it is.

jjp


I did, and all it tells me is nobody agrees on what a "latinization" is. I'm sure the Ruthenian BCC leadership wouldn't say the revised liturgy is latinized, or introduced new latinizations, if you asked them.

The whole question of de-latinization and liturgical reform seems to me to be a clerical issue. I wouldn't be shocked if most people when asked wouldn't just say things should be left alone, existing latinizations and all. I would also wonder if this whole issue is really the most pressing problem the church is facing.

What's ironic to me is the Ruthenian BCC it would seem was at its largest numerically and most active when it was "latinized".

Then, regrettably, I must say you understand neither Latinization nor calendar.