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I understand. I brought it up only to express that my interest is not to "prove" you or anyone else that you're wrong and I'm right, or to convince anyone to come around to my opinion. What I do believe is that in these discussions the underlying issues come to the surface and help us to understand the differences that exist. That's what I meant by saying it can't be narrowed to a set of bullets.

Something tells me that is a bit of a simplification. The Bishop of Constantinople, as I understand things, can convoke a Pan Orthodox synod. He does not exercise authority over the other bishops in that synod though. He's just the meeting organizer, to put it in plain terms. He cannot individually make or ratify decisions. This is essentially what happens in local synods when a Patriarch acts in conjunction with the bishops of that church.
I happen to agree! This in itself is essentially impossible to define as a perceptible process. It just happens. It is of course also nowhere recorded in precise terms. That's what I mean by no exact definition of what makes a council ecumenical. The important point to me anyway is the councils are not inventing truths. They're just recognizing the truth that exists. I bring that up because conceivably a truth could be acknowledged and received in the church that is not the product of a council. I say that simply as a hypothetical.

If the Average Catholic does not beleive the same as the Pope and the Magisterium how are they Catholic?


No illusion, truly theres are as many ways to be Catholic as there are Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_religious_order

Adorers (Adorers of the Blood of Christ) - A.S.C. (1834)
Adornos (Clerics Regular Minor) - C.R.M. (1563)
Adrian Dominican Sisters (1233/1853)
Albertines (1888)
Alexians - C.F.A. (1469)
Angelic Sisters of St. Paul - A.S.S.P. (1535)
Apostles of the Sacred Heart of Jesus - A.S.C.J. (1894)
Assisi Sisters of Mary Immaculate - A. S. M. I. - Green Gardens, Shertallay, Kerala, India (1949)
Assumptionists - A.A. (1845)
Little Sisters of the Assumption (1865)
Religious of the Assumption (1839)
Atonement, Society of the (Atonement Friars/Graymoor Friars/Sisters) - S.A. (1909)
Augustinian Recollects - (Order of the Augustinians Recollects) - O.A.R. (1912)
Augustinian Sisters, Servants of Jesus and Mary - A.S.J.M. (1827)
Augustinians (Order of Saint Augustine) - O.S.A. (1244)
Augustinians of Kansas: Society of Saint Augustine - S.S.A. (1981)
Baladites (Order of Lebanese Maronite) - O.L.M. (1694)
Barnabites (Clerics Regular of Saint Paul) - B., C.R.S.P. (1530)
Benedictines (Rule of St. Benedict) - R.S.B. (529)
Benedictine Oblates of St Scholastica
Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration (1874)
Bernardine Cistercian Sisters of Esquiermes
Bernardines (also see Cistercians) (1098)
Bon Secours Sisters - C.B.S. (1824)
Brigidine Sisters (1807)
Bridgettines (Order of Our Savior) - O.Ss.S. (1350)
Brotherhood of Hope - B.H. (1980)
Brothers Hospitallers of St. John of God (Order of Hospitallers) - O.H. (1572)
Brothers of Charity - F.C. (Ghent, 1807)
Brothers of Christian Instruction of St Gabriel - F.S.G. (1711)
Brothers of Mercy of Our Lady of Perpetual Help - f.m.m. (1839)
Brothers of the Christian Schools (Lasallian Brothers or Christian Brothers) - F.S.C. (1680)
Brothers of the Poor of St. Francis of Assisi (Brothers CFP located in the United States, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Brazil, Regular Third Order) (1861)
Brothers of the Sacred Heart - S.C. (1821)
FIC Brothers-FIC
Camaldolese (Camaldolese Benedictines) - O.S.B. Cam. (13th century)
Camaldolese Hermits of the Congregation of Monte Corona - Er.Cam.
Camillians (Ordo Clericorum Regolarium Ministrantium Infirmis)- M.I. (1591)
Canonesses of St. Augustine - C.R.O.S.A.
Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius - S.J.C. (2006)
Canons Regular of the Holy Cross OSC (1131)
Canons Regular Canons Regular of St. Augustine CRSA (1100)
Canons Regular of the Immaculate Conception (1871)
Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem - C.R.N.J. (2002)
Canons Regular of the Order of the Holy Cross (Crosiers) (1210)
Canons Regular of Premontre (Norbertines) (1121)
Canossians (Canossian Daughters and Sons of Charity) - F.D.D.C. (1808)
Capuchins (Order of Friars Minor Capuchin) - O.F.M. Cap. (1520)
Capuchin Poor Clares (1538)
Carmelitae Sancti Eliae, Carmelites of Saint Elijah - CSE (1986)
Carmelites (Order of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel) - O.Carm., O.C.D., O.C.D.S. (1209)
Carmelites of Mary Immaculate - C.M.I. (1831)
Carmelite Daughters of the Divine Heart of Jesus - D.C.J. (1891)
Carmelite Sisters for the Aged and Infirm (1929)
Carmelite Sisters of the Most Sacred Heart of Los Angeles (1904)
Carthusians - O.Cart. (1084)
Celestines (defunct) (1244)
Cistercians (Cistercians of the Ancient Observance)- O.Cist./S.O.Cist (1098)
Claretians (Claretian Missionaries) - C.M.F. (1849)
Claretian Sisters (1876)
Comboni Missionaries (1867)
Community of Betania
Companions of the Cross - C.C. (1988)
Company of Mary Our Lady - O.D.N. (1607)
Congregatio Immaculati Cordis Mariae - C.I.C.M. (1862)
Congregation of the Blessed Sacrament - S.S.S. (1659)
Congregation of Christian Brothers (Christian Brothers of Ireland) - C.F.C. (1802)
Congregation of the Disciples of the Lord - C.D.D. (1931)
Congregation of Divine Providence - C.D.P. (1827)
Congregation of Holy Cross - C.S.C. (1837)
Congregation of Maronite Lebanese Missionaries - M.L.[kreimists.org] (1865)
Congregation of the Mission - C.M. (1624)
Congregation of the Mother Co-Redemptrix - C.M.C. (1909)
Congregation of Notre Dame - C.N.D. (1653)
Congregation of Our Lady of the Missions (1861)
Congregation of the Sisters of Nazareth - C. S. N. - Paduapuram, Edakkunnu, Kerala, India (1948)
Congregation of the Sisters of the Resurrection (1891)
Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary - SS.CC. (1800)
Congregation of St. Basil - C.S.B. (1822)
Congregation of St. Joseph - C.S.J. (1873)
Congregation of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, Mookkannur, Kerala, India (CST brothers: 1931; CST fathers: 1945)
Congregation of the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy (Divine Mercy Sisters) - O.L.M. (1862)
Conventual Franciscans (Conventuals or Order of Friars Minor Conventual) - O.F.M. Conv. (1209)
Daughters of Charity - D.C. (1633)
Daughters of Divine Charity - F.D.C. (1868)
Daughters of Divine Love (1969)
Daughters of the Holy Spirit - D.H.S. (1706)
Daughters of Mary of the Immaculate Conception (1904)
Daughters of Our Lady of Compassion - D.O.L.C (1892)
Daughters of St. Francis of Assisi - Lacon, Illinois (1894)
Daughters of St. Paul - F.S.P. (1915)
Daughters of Wisdom (1707)
Dehonians (Priests of the Sacred Heart of Jesus) - S.C.J. (1878)
Discalced Augustinians - O.A.D. (1592)
Discalced Carmelites - O.C.D. (1593)
Disciples of the Lord - C.D.D. (1931)
Divine Word Missionaries - S.V.D. (1875)
Dominican Missionaries for the Deaf Apostolate - O.P. Miss. (2004)
Dominican Nuns of the Perpetual Rosary (1880)
Dominicans (Order of Friars Preachers) - O.P. (1216)
Dominican Sisters of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin (1856)
Dominican Sisters of Hawthorne (1900)
Dominican Sisters of the Immaculate Conception - O.P. (1861)
Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia - O.P. (1860)
Dottrinari (Congregazione dei Preti della Dottrina Cristiana) - D.C. (1592)
Eudists (Congregation of Jesus and Mary) - C.I.M. (1643)
English Benedictine Congregation - O.S.B. (1216)
Fathers of Mercy - (Congregatio Presbyterorum a Misericordia) - C.P.M. (1808)
Felician Sisters (Congregation of the Sisters of St. Felix of Cantalice) - C.S.S.F. (1855)
Franciscan Apostolic Sisters - F.A.S. (1954)
Franciscan Brothers of Brooklyn - O.S.F. (1858)
Franciscan Brothers of the Eucharist - F.B.E. (2004)
Franciscan Brothers of Peace - F.B.P. (1982)
Franciscan Clarist Congregation
Franciscan Friars (Order of Friars Minor) - O.F.M. (1209)
Franciscan Friars of the Renewal - C.F.R. (1987)
Franciscan Friars of the Third Order Regular - T.O.R. (1447)
Franciscan Handmaids of Mary (1915)
Franciscan Hospitaller Sisters of the Immaculate Conception - F.H.I.C. (1876)
Franciscan Minims of the Perpetual Help of Mary - f.m. (1942)
Franciscans of the Immaculate - F.I.
Franciscan Missionaries of the Divine Motherhood - F.M.D.M. (1887)
Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word - M.F.V.A. (1987)
Franciscan Missionaries of Mary - F.M.M. (1877)
Franciscan Missionary Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (1859)
Franciscan Missionary Sisters of the Infant Jesus (1879)
Franciscan Servants of Jesus (1997)
Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity - O.S.F. (1869)
Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist - F.S.E. (1973)
Franciscan Sisters of the Family of Mary
Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate Conception - F.S.I.C.
Franciscan Sisters of Mary Immaculate (1893)
Franciscan Sisters of Penance of the Sorrowful Mother - T.O.R. (1988)
Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration - O.S.F. (1849)
Fransalians (Missionaries of St. Francis de Sales) - M.S.F.S. (1838)
Friars of St Francis - F.S.F (1993)
Good Shepherd Sisters - R.G.S. (1641)
Grey Nuns - G.N.S.H. (1738)
Handmaids of the Blessed Sacrament and of Charity - A.A.S.C. (1950)
Handmaids of the Precious Blood - H.P.B. (1947)
Handmaids of the Sacred Heart of Jesus - A.A.S.C. (1877)
Handmaids of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Mary and Joseph (1978)
Hermits of Saint Bruno - H.S.B.
Holy Cross Fathers (Congregation of Holy Cross) - C.S.C. (1837)
Holy Spirit Adoration Sisters (Pink Sisters) - S.Sp.S.A.P. (1896)
Hospital Sisters of the Mercy of Jesus (13th century)
Infant Jesus Sisters (Nicolas Barre) - I.J. (1666)
Institut du Clergé Patriarcal de Bzommar - I.C.P.B. (1749)
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest - I.C.R.S.S. (1990)
Institute of the Incarnate Word - I.V.E. (1984)
Jesuits (Society of Jesus) - S.J. (1540)
Josephite Fathers (St. Joseph's Society of the Sacred Heart) - S.S.J. (1893)
Legion of Christ - L.C. (founded 1941, approved 1983)
Little Brothers of the Gospel - (1956)
Little Brothers of Jesus - (1933)
Little Brothers of St Francis - (1970) (l.b.s.f)
Little Sisters of the Assumption (1865)
Little Sisters of the Gospel - (1963)
Little Sisters of Jesus - (1933)
Little Sisters of Jesus and Mary (1974)
Little Sisters of the Poor - L.S.P. (19th century)
Lovers of the Holy Cross (1670)
Loreto Sisters (Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary) - I.B.V.M. (1609)
Marian Fathers - M.I.C. (1673)
Marian Sisters (Marian Sisters of the Diocese of Lincoln) - M.S. (1952)
Marianists (Society of Mary) - S.M. (1817)
Marianist Sisters (Daughters of Mary Immaculate) - F.M.I. (1817)
Marianites of Holy Cross - M.S.C. (1841)
Marist Brothers - F.M.S. (1817)
Marists (Society of Mary) - S. M.(1816)
Maryknoll (Catholic Foreign Mission Society of America) - M.M. (1911)
Mercedarians (Order of Our Lady of Mercy) - O. de M. (1218)
Miles Christi - M.C. (1984)
Mission Helpers of The Sacred Heart - M.H.S.H. (1890)
Missionaries of Charity - M.C. (1950)
Missionaries of La Salette - M.S. (1852)
Missionaries of Mary - (2007)
Missionaries of St. Charles Borromeo) - C.S. (1887)
Missionaries of the Gospel of Life (2005)
Missionaries of the Poor - M.O.P. (1981)
Missionaries of the Precious Blood (Precious Blood Fathers) - C.PP.S. (1815)
Missionaries of the Sacred Heart - M.S.C. (1854)
Missionaries of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary (1836)
Missionary Congregation for the Blessed Sacrament
Missionary Society of St. Columban Columbans - S.S.C. (1916)
Monastic Fraternities of Jerusalem (1975)
Montfort Missionaries (Company of Mary) - S.M.M. (1705)
Norbertines or Premonstratensians (Canons Regular of Prémontré) - C.R.P., O.Praem. (1120)
Oblate Apostles of the Two Hearts - O.A.T.H. (1995)
Oblate Sisters of Providence - O.S.P. (1829)
Oblates Of Mary Immaculate - O.M.I. (1816)
Oblates of St. Joseph - O.S.J. (1878)
Oblates Of The Virgin Mary - O.M.V. (1827)
Olivetans (Order of Our Lady of Mount Olivet) (1313)
Oratorians (Oratory of St. Philip Neri) - C.O., Cong. Orat. (16th century)
Order of the Imitation of Christ - O.I.C. (1930)
Order of Sempringham (Gilbertines) - (1148-1538)
Order of St. Elisabeth O.S.E. (1622)
Pallottines (Society of the Catholic Apostolate) - S.A.C. (1835)
Paris Foreign Missions Society (Missions Etrangères de Paris) - M.E.P. (1658)
Passionists (Congregation of the Passion) - C.P. (1720)
Passionist Sisters (1850s)
Patrician Brothers - F.S.P. (1808)
Pauline Fathers (Order of Saint Paul the First Hermit) - O.S.P.P.E. (1250)
Paulist Fathers (Missionary Society of Saint Paul the Apostle) - C.S.P. (1858)
Piarists (Clerics Regulars Poors of the Mother of God of the Pious Schools) - Sch.P. (1617)
Pious Disciples of the Divine Master - P.D.D.M. (1924)
Pontifical Congregation of the Benedictine Sisters of the Reparation of the Holy Face (1950)
Poor Clares (Nuns of the Order of St. Clare/(Order of Poor Ladies) - O.S.C. (1212)
Poor Clare Nuns - Joliet, Ill.
Poor Clares of Santa Barbara - Santa Barbara, Calif.
Poor Clare Nuns of Perpetual Adoration (1854)
Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon - Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici (1129–1312)
Sisters of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary - P.B.V.M. (1775)
Presentation Brothers - F.P.M. (1802)
Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter - F.S.S.P. (1988)
Putri Karmel (1982)
Racine Dominican Sisters (1862)
Redemptorists (Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer) - C.Ss.R. (1732)
Les Religieuses de Notre-Dame-du-Sacre-Coeur (Dieppe, New Brunswick, Canada) (1924)
Religious of the Assumption - R.A. (1839)
Religious of Christian Education - (1817)
Religious of the Sacred Heart of Mary - R.S.H.M. (1849)
Religious of the Virgin Mary - R.V.M. (1684)
Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma, Michigan - R.S.M.
Religious Sisters of Charity (1815)
Resurrectionists - C.R. (1836)
Rogationists of the Heart of Jesus - R.C.J. (1897)
Rosminians (Institute of Charity) - I.C. (1828)
Salesians of St. John Bosco - S.D.B. (1857)
Salesian Sisters (Daughters of Mary Help of Christian) - F.M.A. (1872)
Salvatorians (Society of the Divine Savior) - S.D.S. (1881)
Salvatorians (Basilian Salvatorian Order - A Melkite Community) - bso (1724) (Always Lower-Cased)
School Sisters of Christ the King (1976)
School Sisters of Notre Dame - S.S.N.D. (1833)
School Sisters of the Third Order of St Francis (1873)
Servites (Order of Friars, Servants of Mary) - O.S.M. (1233)
Sinsinawa Dominican Sisters (1847)
Sister Adorers of the Precious Blood - R.P.G. (1861)
Sisters Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus Christ Sovereign Priest (2004)
Sisters of Adoration, Slaves of the Blessed Sacrament and of Charity (1850)
Sisters of the Apostolic Carmel (1870)
Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament (1891)
Sisters of the Cenacle - r.c. (1826)
Sisters of Charity - S.C. (1633)
Sisters of Charity of Saints Bartolomaea Capitanio & Vincenza Gerosa, Milan, Italy - SCCG (1832)
Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati (1829)
Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth (1858)
Sisters of Charity of New York (1846)
Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary - B.V.M. (1831)
Sisters of Charity of the Immaculate Conception (Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada) (1854)
Sisters of Charity of the Incarnate Word (1866)
Sisters of Charity of Jesus and Mary (1803)
Sisters of Charity of Our Lady of Mercy (South Carolina) (1829)
Sisters of Charity of Providence - SP (1844)
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth (1859)
Sisters of Charity Federation in the Vincentian-Setonian Tradition
Sisters of Charity of Saint Vincent de Paul - Halifax (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) (1849)
Vincentian Sisters of Charity (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) (1902)
Sisters of the Destitute (Kerala, India) (1927)
Sisters of the Divine Compassion (1886)
Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill (Pennsylvania) (1870)
Sisters of the Holy Cross - C.S.C. (1837)
Sisters of the Holy Family (1837)
Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth (1875)
Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary - S.N.J.M. (1844)
Sisters of the Immaculate Conception of Castres
Sisters of Jesus, Our Hope
Sisters of Life - S.V. (1991)
Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist - O.P. (1997)
Sisters of Mercy - R.S.M. (1831)
Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur - S.N.D., S.N.D. de N. (1803)
Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy (1862)
Sisters of Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods - S.P. (1840)
Sisters of Providence of St. Vincent de Paul (Kingston) - S.P.
Sisters of La Retraite
Sisters of Saint Agnes (1858)
Sisters of Saint Dorothy
Sisters of Saint Elizabeth (1842)
Sisters of St. Francis of Assisi (1849)
Sisters of St Francis of the Martyr St George - F.S.G.M. (1869)
Sisters of St. Francis of Penance and Christian Charity (1835)
Sisters of Saint Francis of Rochester, Minnesota (1877)
Sisters of St Joseph (AKA Sisters of Saint Joseph of Medaille) - C.S.J. (1650)
Sisters of Saint Joseph of Bourg or S.S.J. (1650)
Sisters of St. Joseph of Chambéry (1812)
Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace (1884)
Sisters of St. Joseph of the Sacred Heart - S.S.J. (1866)
Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis (1901)
Sisters of Saint Martha (Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada) (1900)
Sisters of St Rita (1911)
Sisters of St Therese of the Child Jesus (St Therese Sisters - Tanzania) - S.S.Th.
Sisters of Social Service - S.S.S. (1926)
Sisters of the Visitation - Sisters of the Visitation, Toledo, Ohio (1610)
Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary – I.H.M. (1845)
Sisters, Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matará - S.S.V.M. (1988)
Sisters, Servants of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus (Cresson, PA; Poland; Vatican City) - S.S.C.J. (1894)
Society of African Missions (Societas Missionum ad Afros) - S.M.A. (1850)
Society of the Helpers of the Holy Souls (1856)
Society of the Holy Child Jesus - S.H.C.J. (1846)
Society of Jesus(Jesuits) - S.J.or S.I. (1534)
Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity - S.O.L.T. (1958)
Society of St. Edmund S.S.E. (1843)
Society of Saint Paul - S.S.P. (1914)
Society of the Sacred Heart - R.S.C.J. (1800)
Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta (Order of Malta) - S.M.O.M. (1099)
Spiritans or Holy Ghost Fathers (Congregation of the Holy Ghost) - C.S.Sp. (1703)
Stigmatines (Congregation of the Sacred Stigmata) - C.S.S. (1816)
Sulpician Fathers (Society of Saint Sulpice) - S.S., P.S.S. (1642)
Tertiary Sisters of St. Francis - Cameroon (1700)
Teutonic Order (1190)
Theatines (Congregation of Clerics Regular) - C.R. (1524)
Theatines Nuns (Congregation of Theatines of Immaculate Conception) - T.I.C. (1633)
Trappists (Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance) - O.C.R., O.C.S.O. (1662)
Trinitarians (Order of the Most Holy Trinity) - O.SS.T. (1194)
Ursulines (Ursuline Nuns of the Roman Union) - O.S.U. (1535)
Verbum Dei Missionary Fraternity - M.V.D.F. (1963)
Viatorians (Clerics of Saint Viator) - C.S.V. (1831)
Heralds of the Gospel (Virgo Flos Carmeli and Regina Virginum) - E.P. (February 22, 2001)
Vincentian Congregation (VC) (1904)
Visitation Nuns - Sisters of the Visitation, Toledo, Ohio (1610)
Visitation Nuns - Second Federation of the Visitation Order (1610)
Vocationists (The Society of Divine Vocations) - S.D.V. (1927)
White Fathers - M.Afr. (1868)
Xaverian Brothers - C.F.X. (1839)
Xaverian Missionaries (Missionary Society of St. Francis Xavier) - S.X. (1895)

I don't really understand your point here. These are different religious orders within the Catholic Church, not different belief systems. Each of these orders has a different charism by which they serve the Church. Some are cloistered, others are "in the world, yet not of the world", others are "semi-cloistered", taking care of the poor and needy while at the same time living a cloistered life. Again, these are not different ways of being Catholic (as in different beliefs within the Catholic Church), but different ways of serving the Church and living one's vocation.

wikipedia is no more an authoritative source for Catholics than Orthodox. Again, please cite a source that Catholics would recognize as authoritative for the Catholic Church if you're going to spout polemics that are based in perception, not in actual fact.

Oh, and if the average Catholic does not believe that which has been handed on to us from Apostolic times, then they aren't Catholic, plain and simple. It works the same way as it does within Orthodoxy.

Catholics, whether Eastern or Western, believe the same ESSENTIAL dogmas (what is essential and what isn't is a completely different discussion), but the theological language with which we surround those dogmas in order to express them in our finite human language can and most frequently does differ. I would think that one who follows apophatic theology, as Orthodoxy does, would understand that.

I believe Rome has more work to do in order for reunion to occur, simply because it has dogmatized its own theologoumenon. She did this by attaching to her theological definitions anathemas for those who don't follow them. Stuart is correct, then, that Rome would have to revisit the number of councils it considers ecumenical. Even if they were to admit that post-schism councils were only general councils I would think that they would still need to do something with the anathemas. Would it make sense for the east to be allowed flexibility in denying what the council said, but if you happen to be western you are not granted the same liberty? If they are nonessentials then the anathemas need to be removed, for eastern and western alike. If they are essentials then liberty must be replaced by conformity. We can't have it both ways.

The problem I have with Rome is that it often speaks equivocally on issues of East / West relations by encouraging the Eastern Churches to move forward with de-Latinization, while simultaneously imposing the greatest Latinization in history upon them during the pontificate of John Paul II (i.e., the CCEO), and by condemning the Melkite Church's so-called Zoghby Initiative, which really is the best proposal aimed at the re-unification of the whole of the East with the Roman Church.

Mike:

Christ is in our midst!!

Don't you remember the saying attributed to St. John Chrysostom? "Thousands and thousands of people crowd the churches. Of those thousands, only a few hundred understand what is happening. Of those few hundred, only a handful take that understanding and achieve their salvation."

Now, I can't give you the soruce of that quote, though I've seen it in my reading over the years and heard it spoken. I'd add that there are, indeed, many ways to be Catholic, but they differ from the list of religous orders above. There are true believers; there are those who attend out of a sense of obligation; those who attend when it suits; those who are "culture Catholics"--people whose particular ethnic background makes them think they ought to call themselves Catholic; there are what I've heard the clergy term "the hatch, match, and dispatch" crowd--Baptize them, marry them, and bury them, but never see them in the meantime. There are those who have dropped out for a reason and those who have just faded away.

Catholic is about as broad a term as it implies--it's "here comes everyone."

Bob

One could equally apply this to any of the Orthodox Churches, or any Protestant denomination for that matter. There will always be nominal Christians and Christians who actually try to be Christians.

While I am not the biggest fan of the CCEO, I would be interested in some specifics on how it is "the greatest Latinization in history". I would also point out that certain Eastern Catholic Churches take a very "Pirates of the Carribean" approach to the CCEO ("They're more like guidelines than actual rules...").

I do agree that the Zoghby Initiative is the best proposal aimed at reunification. But it was rejected equally by Orthodoxy as it was by Rome. Our current Holy Father, however, has proposed a similar model for reunion in his now famous "Ratzinger Formula", in which he states fundamentally that in the event of reunion the Orthodox Churches would not be bound by any of the dogmatic developments of the West that have taken place since the 11th Century, but also that Orthodoxy would not be allowed to condemn those developments as heretical.

Our Holy Father no longer follows that proposal he made decades ago when he was a university professor.

As head of the CDF, then-Cardinal Ratzinger rejected the Zoghby Initiative stating:

For further reading on this topic: Are the Ratzinger Proposal and Zoghby Initiative Dead? [imageandword.com]

In it, it states:

We're not really speaking about the issue of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Even an honest Orthodox Christian will admit that Orthodoxy confesses the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. The question is: what is that primacy? Is it merely one of honor, or is there more to it than that? I personally believe that there is more to it than that, hence I'm still in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But, I do not agree with the current way in which that primacy is exercised. I've heard it described (by a Catholic priest) as a tyranny rather than a true primacy modeled off of the primacy of the Father within the Holy Trinity, or even the headship of Christ over his Body, the Church. However, as you pointed out by quoting John Paul II, our most recent Popes have also disagreed with the way the Roman primacy is lived out, and hence they have sought and are seeking reform.

Whether or not Ratzinger has now rejected his former position on the reunion of the Churches I don't know. I've read indications that he hasn't actually rejected his own "Formula", but I'm going to have to go back and reread some stuff just to make sure. Personally I adhere to the Zoghby Initiative and to his Confession of Faith that was subscribed to by the Melkite Synod of Bishops in 1995 (I think that's the date). If that earns me an "anathema" from Rome, then I'm sure that I'll find a warm welcome within our Mother Church in Holy Orthodoxy.

The article your posted was interesting; but, if the Orthodox are expected to cave as the last paragraph of the article seems to imply, it ain't gonna happen. As for papal primacy always have been accepted, it would do well for those in the west to review the case of Apiarius in North Africa. It was this event that caused St. Augustine of Hippo to tell the Bishop of Rome to stay out of the affairs of the church in North africa. (Papal legates often suffer from inflates egos). I have referenced more details about good old Apiarius elsewhere on this site (https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267189)

The only compromise I can think of is if some agreement came about that Papal authority can only be exercised in the canonical jurisdiction of an Orthodox church or churches if there was an invitation for that to happen. This would open the door to universal jurisdiction, but not of the immediate variety. It's possible that simply wouldn't be acceptable to anyone though, but I can't think of much else that both sides could agree to.

The reality is the RCC certainly understands it can't invoke it's authority inside of the Orthodox Church or against its wishes. Both sides also understand this isn't an issue of sotierology, meaning acceptance or rejection of the Papal dogma is not a matter of salvation as seen at the time of Florence.

I think we basically should return to the canons of Serdica, under which Rome was the ecclesiastical court of final appeal. As long as Rome limited itself to an appellate role, there was general accord among the Churches.

I agree. Nevertheless, it must be borne in mind that what the Pope decided in the appeal of cases to the Roman Church - as Hamilton Hess demonstrated in his book on the Serdican canons - was not the case itself, that is, the Pope did not issue a judgment on his own that simply reversed the original decision of the provincial synod; instead, he had the authority to determine if the case against the petitioner (i.e., the person seeking redress) was worthy of reconsideration at a new synod of bishops selected from the provinces neighboring the one which originally tried the case [see Hamiton Hess, The Early Development of Canon Law and the Council of Serdica, pages 179-200].