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#352858 09/10/10 05:57 PM
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

In a thread on Old Testament Saints and sinlessness, stuart commented
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Since we are born without sin, spotlessness would not require a change to a new state, but continuation of the original state. To the extent that Mary's state changed, it was not from sinful to sinless, but from woman to Theotokos.

So, not to start a controversial thread, but can you guys help me grasp the difference between how the West views what "Original Sin" is on both sides and what effects are?

One caveat though, please, none of the Augustine = Roman Church stuff and so Romans believe that we have the guilt of Adam. That is NOT what the Roman Church believes. And if you want to challenge me or others on that, then please start a new thread.

If you guys cannot help thinking that what I said above is what you think the Roman Church believes, then please, just explain what the East believes in this matter.

Kyrie eleison,

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If you look in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church (the current one) you will see terms like "Ancient Beauty" and "Divinize" which are things Byzantines are all too familiar with. I do not know what was really taught before the catechism but in polemics, Eastern Orthodoxy and Anglicans enjoy using outdated understandings revolving around the transmission of personal guilt by the personal sins of Adam and Eve (the first humans).

I think a lot of Roman Catholics "know what original sin is" but it always comes out different than how the catechism explains it. "Original Sin" is a cumbersome phrase used to describe by the entire church professes. In the Byzantine memorial to the dead we hear of having fallen from our ancient beauty and we cry out to God to have mercy on us and save us. Sin is the disease to which we are afflicted in both soul and body and Christ is the great physician who comes in compassion and love to heal us and return us to our pre-fallen state. It's not Adam and Eve's personal sin which we are bound to, but the affects of it; our inclination toward pride and the death of our soul without Christ, this is the loss of our ancient beauty. At least since the promulgation of this catechism, the western church affirms a view in line with the Orthodox understanding of our fallen nature and the human condition. "Original Sin" is the buzzword the west uses to describe this belief.



Here is the chunk defining it in the catechism:

"404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

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Here's the little I have been able to figure out from the lots I have read. Some (many? most?) contemporary Eastern theologians identify the ancestral sin as death: we sin because we die or perhaps more accurately, we sin because we fear death. This seems to be the position of Meyendorff and Romanides. Does this represent the historic Eastern position? Heck if I know. Compare this view with the view advanced by Archbishop Hilarion [en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org]:
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The consequences of the Fall for the first humans were catastrophic. They were not only deprived of the bliss and sweetness of Paradise, but their whole nature was changed and disfigured. In sinning they fell away from their natural condition and entered an unnatural state of being. All elements of their spiritual and corporeal make-up were damaged: their spirit, instead of striving for God, became engrossed in the passions; their soul entered the sphere of bodily instincts; while their body lost its original lightness and was transformed into heavy sinful flesh. After the Fall the human person ‘became deaf, blind, naked, insensitive to the good things from which he had fallen away, and above all became mortal, corruptible and without sense of purpose’ (St Symeon the New Theologian). Disease, suffering and pain entered human life. Humans became mortal for they had lost the opportunity of tasting from the tree of life.

Not only humanity but also the entire world changed as a result of the Fall. The original harmony between people and nature had been broken; the elements had become hostile; storms, earthquakes and floods could destroy life. The earth would no longer provide everything of its own accord; it would have to be tilled ‘in the sweat of your face’, and would produce ‘thorns and thistles’. Even the animals would become the human being’s enemy: the serpent would ‘bruise his heel’ and other predators would attack him (Gen.3:14-19). All of creation would be subject to the ‘bondage of decay’. Together with humans it would now ‘wait for freedom’ from this bondage, since it did not submit to vanity voluntarily but through the fault of humanity (Rom.8:19-21).

After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain’s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself ‘built a city’. One of his closest descendants was ‘the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle’; another was ‘the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe’; yet another was ‘the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron’ (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain’s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.

The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12). This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘original sin’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘original sin’ means.

If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam’s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam’s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.

However, if we read the text to mean ‘in whom all have sinned’, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam’s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has ‘fallen ill with sin’; thus we all share Adam’s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of ‘a leaven of evil passions’ and of ‘secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions’, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.

The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: ‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me’ (Ps.51:7). They believed that God ‘visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation’ (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.

From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam’s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: ‘...As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous ... so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).

I think it is fair to say that one is hard put to find a significant difference between Hilarion and the Catholic Catechism. Is Hilarion still trapped in the Western captivity? Now compare the view of the 17th century Eastern Patriarchs:
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We believe man in falling by the [original] transgression to have become comparable and similar to the beasts; that is, to have been utterly undone, and to have fallen from his perfection and impassibility, yet not to have lost the nature and power which he had received from the supremely good God. For otherwise he would not be rational, and consequently not a human. So [he still has] the same nature in which he was created, and the same power of his nature, that is free-will, living and operating, so that he is by nature able to choose and do what is good, and to avoid and hate what is evil. For it is absurd to say that the nature which was created good by Him who is supremely good lacks the power of doing good. For this would be to make that nature evil — what could be more impious than that? For the power of working depends upon nature, and nature upon its author, although in a different manner. And that a man is able by nature to do what is good, even our Lord Himself intimates saying, even the Gentiles love those that love them. {Matthew 5:46; Luke 6:32} But this is taught most plainly by Paul also, in Romans 1:19, [actually Rom 2:14] and elsewhere expressly, saying in so many words, “The Gentiles which have no law do by nature the things of the law.” From which it is also apparent that the good which a man may do cannot truly be sin. For it is impossible for that what is good to be evil. Although, being done by nature only and tending to form the natural character of the doer but not the spiritual, it does not itself contribute to salvation without faith Nor does it lead to condemnation, for it is not possible that good, as such, can be the cause of evil. But in the regenerated, what is wrought by grace, and with grace, makes the doer perfect, and renders him worthy of salvation.

A man, therefore, before he is regenerated, is able by nature to incline to what is good, and to choose and work moral good. But for the regenerated to do spiritual good — for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual — it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace, as has been said in treating of predestination. Consequently, he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life, although he has it in his own power to will, or not to will, to co-operate with grace.

The Eastern Patriarchs are clearly employing a scholastic idiom to describe their faith; but are they misrepresenting it? For three centuries the Confession of Dositheus was accepted by Orthodoxy as a faithful statement of Orthodox belief. Is it easily dismissed?

In Latin Christianity, at least since the Council of Trent, original sin has been understood as the privation of "sanctifying grace." Eastern Christianity has no such category--hence the difficulty of comparing the respective positions. For my own pathetic attempts to mediate the dispute, click here [pontifications.wordpress.com].


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To get authentic Byzantine perspectives, you have to go back to the 14th-15th centuries.

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One caveat though, please, none of the Augustine = Roman Church stuff and so Romans believe that we have the guilt of Adam. That is NOT what the Roman Church believes. And if you want to challenge me or others on that, then please start a new thread.

Yes, that gets tiresome.

In my opinion there is no purely Eastern or Western view of Original Sin or the Atonement.

Regarding the Orthodox Church, as far as I can tell there have been various interpretations and views expressed over time. Some of course sounding like they came straight from Trent. I don't think there is any conciliar definition that touches on the subject other than what is contained in the creed itself, so that does leave room for variable opinion. This of course is not how the polemicists view the matter and they do like to reduce this to matters of "East" and "West" for their own purposes.

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Originally Posted by Luvr of East
One caveat though, please, none of the Augustine = Roman Church stuff and so Romans believe that we have the guilt of Adam. That is NOT what the Roman Church believes. And if you want to challenge me or others on that, then please start a new thread.


That may not be the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but it is certainly the common belief: I heard it from priests, catechists, laity, and just about everyone I ever encountered while I was an RC, including scholars and academics who should have know better.

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When God created the first man, He saw that he was very good, that man was directed towards God in love. There were no conflicts in the first created man. Man was a complete unity of spirit, soul and body, one harmonious whole — the spirit of man was directed towards God, the soul was united or freely submitted to the spirit, and the body to the soul. There was unity of purpose, direction, and will. Man was holy, becoming like God.

The will of God is specifically this: that man freely, that is, with love, strive towards God, the source of eternal life and blessedness, and that in this way he remain continually in communion with God, in the blessedness of eternal life. Such were Adam and Eve. Therefore they had illuminated reason and Adam knew every creature by name. This means that for him the physical laws of the formation of the earth and the animal world were made manifest — those laws, which we are now only partially discovering. By the fall into sin, men destroyed their internal harmony — the unity of spirit, soul and body — they upset their nature. There was no more unity of purpose, direction, and will.

In vain some people wish to interpret the fall into sin as allegory, that is, that the fall into sin consisted of the physical love between Adam and Eve, forgetting that the Lord Himself commanded them, "be fruitful and multiply..." Moses clearly recounts that, "Eve first sinned alone, and not together with her husband." Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow writes "How could Moses have written that if he were writing only allegorically, which some people like to find here?"

The result of the fall into sin was that our fore-parents, by giving in to the temptation, ceased to regard the forbidden fruit as a matter of the commandment of God and began to see it in relationship to themselves, to their feelings, and heart, and understanding, departing from the unity of God’s truth into a multitude of private thoughts and private wishes, not concentrated in the will of God, that is, departing into lust. Desire, having conceived sin, gives rise to active sin (James 1:14-15). Eve, tempted by the Devil, saw the forbidden tree not for what it was but what she wanted, in accordance with obvious forms of desire (I John 2:16; Gen. 3:6). What kinds of desire were found in the soul of Eve before the eating of the forbidden fruit? And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that is, imagined a certain special, extraordinarily pleasant taste in the forbidden fruit — this is lust of the flesh. And that it was pleasing to the eye, that is, it seemed to the woman to be more beautiful than all the other fruit — this is lust of the eyes, or the passion to acquire. It was desirable because it grants knowledge. The woman wanted to know the loftier, divine knowledge which the tempter offered her — this is the pride of life or the love of glory.

The first sin is born in sensuality, with the striving for pleasant feelings, for physical comfort; in the heart, with the desire for pleasure without discernment; and in the mind, with the fantasy of arrogant, varied knowledge. Thus, it penetrates all the powers of human nature.

The disrupting of human nature also includes the fact that sin turned or tore the soul from the spirit, and the soul, as a result, began to be attracted to the body, to the flesh, and to depend on it. The body, losing its former lofty power of the soul and itself a creation from nothingness, began to have attraction to sensuality, to emptiness, to death. Therefore the result of sin is illness, destruction, and death. The mind of man was darkened, the will weakened, the feeling distorted, conflicts arose, and the human soul lost purposeful striving towards God.

In this manner, having stepped over the limits established by the commandment of God, man turned his soul away from God, the true fullness and universal focal point, and became self-centered, enclosed in the darkness of sensuality, in the coarseness of matter. The mind, will and activity of men turned away from God to material creation, from the heavenly to the earthly, from the unseen to the seen (cf. Gen. 3:6). Deceived by the wiles of the tempter, man by his own will "is compared to the mindless cattle, and is become like unto them" (Ps. 48:12).

The disruption of human nature by ancestral sin — the disruption of soul and spirit in man, which now has an attraction to the sensual, is clearly expressed in the words of the Apostle Paul, "For the good that I would do, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom. 7:19-20). Man constantly suffers from "pangs of conscience" when realizing his sinfulness, his criminality. In other words, it is impossible for man, by his own powers, without the interference or help of God, to restore his damaged and disrupted nature. Therefore, it was necessary for God Himself to come down and dwell upon the earth. The incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the restoration of the fallen and corrupted nature of man, to save man from damnation and eternal death.

Seraphim Slobodoskoy "The Law Of God"

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Originally Posted by Penthaetria
That may not be the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but it is certainly the common belief: I heard it from priests, catechists, laity, and just about everyone I ever encountered while I was an RC, including scholars and academics who should have know better.

I believe that their understanding of inherited guilt stems from the fifth session of the council of Trent:

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05.html

"2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned..

5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema..."




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Originally Posted by ByzBob
Originally Posted by Penthaetria
That may not be the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but it is certainly the common belief: I heard it from priests, catechists, laity, and just about everyone I ever encountered while I was an RC, including scholars and academics who should have know better.

I believe that their understanding of inherited guilt stems from the fifth session of the council of Trent:

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05.html

"2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned..

5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema..."

Like all historical texts, this particular text needs to be historically exegeted. And like all authoritative ecclesial texts, it needs to be interpreted within the context of the theological tradition.

What precisely is "the guilt of original sin"? Based simply on the texts quoted, why would anyone think that it has anything to do with the imputation of the sin of Adam to his descendants? Is this the obvious or plain reading? If it is so obvious, how could the composers of the Catholic Catechism have missed it? I do not doubt that some Catholic priests, nuns, and catechists may have taught that God holds humanity legally accountable for Adam's disobedience; but it's by no means clear to me that this is what the Catholic Church taught in the second millennium.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Kimel
Like all historical texts, this particular text needs to be historically exegeted. And like all authoritative ecclesial texts, it needs to be interpreted within the context of the theological tradition.

What precisely is "the guilt of original sin"? Based simply on the texts quoted, why would anyone think that it has anything to do with the imputation of the sin of Adam to his descendants? Is this the obvious or plain reading? If it is so obvious, how could the composers of the Catholic Catechism have missed it? I do not doubt that some Catholic priests, nuns, and catechists may have taught that God holds humanity legally accountable for Adam's disobedience; but it's by no means clear to me that this is what the Catholic Church taught in the second millennium.

I agree that historical exegesis is important. Setting aside then the modern catechism I would look at, not only councilor texts, such as those from Trent, but also previous catechisms, apologetic material, etc.,

The 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia had an article on original sin, which might be helpful in ascertaining what was previously taught:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
"The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us (loc. cit., can. ii). If he has lost it for us we were to have received it from him at our birth with the other prerogatives of our race. Therefore the absence of sanctifying grace in a child is a real privation, it is the want of something that should have been in him according to the Divine plan. If this favour is not merely something physical but is something in the moral order, if it is holiness, its privation may be called a sin. But sanctifying grace is holiness and is so called by the Council of Trent, because holiness consists in union with God, and grace unites us intimately with God. Moral goodness consists in this, that our action is according to the moral law, but grace is a deification, as the Fathers say, a perfect conformity with God who is the first rule of all morality. (See GRACE.) Sanctifying grace therefore enters into the moral order, not as an act that passes but as a permanent tendency which exists even when the subject who possesses it does not act; it is a turning towards God, conversio ad Deum. Consequently the privation of this grace, even without any other act, would be a stain, a moral deformity, a turning away from God, aversio a Deo, and this character is not found in any other effect of the fault of Adam. This privation, therefore, is the hereditary stain."

In explaining what the lack of sanctifying grace implies Ludwig Ott says, "The lack of sanctifying grace has, as a turning away of man from God, the character of guilt and, as the turning of God away from man, the character of punishment."

He further states, "The dogmatic teaching on original sin is laid down in the Tridentine Decree 'Super peccato originali' (Sess V; 1546), which in part follows word for word the decision of the Synods of Carthage and of Orange. The Council of Trent rejects the doctrine that Adam's loss of sanctity and justice received from God was merely for himself alone, and for us also, and that he transmitted to his posterity death and suffering only, but not the guilt of sin. It positively teaches that sin, which is the death of the soul, is inherited by all his posterity by descent, not by imitation, and that it dwells in every single human being."

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Another example of this teaching is found in the 1971 Cathechism for Byzantine Catholics (pg. 20, nos 115-117). As this catehechism is based upon the old Baltimore Cathechism (BC) it should come as no suprise that the BC has the same teaching.

115. What is orginal sin?
Original sin is that guilt and stain of sin which we inherited from Adam, who was the origin and head of all mankind.

116. What was the sin committed by Adam?
The sin committed by Adam was the sin of disobedience whe he ate the forbidden fruit.

117. Has all mankind contracted the guilt and stain of original sin?
All mankind has contracted the guilt and stain of original sin, except the Blessed Virgin, who, through the merits of her Divine Son, was conceived withouth the least guilt or stain of original sin.

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The passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia precisely explains the meaning of "guilt" in this context, and clearly it does not mean what it is popularly thought to mean. The critical point is that the absence of sanctifying grace is something that "ought not to be"; it is contrary to God's original intention for humanity. Yet we are each born into this state of privation. Where does the fault lie? That is the question for Western theologians. Where does the fault lie? Clearly we cannot blame God; clearly we cannot accuse God of injustice; so the fault and responsibility must therefore lie with humanity.

This has nothing to do with God "blaming" humanity for Adam's sin, as if God holds us responsible for acts we did not commit. Rather, it is a way of asserting that things are not the way God intended them to be. "Guilt" here must be understood analogically, not literally. This is the key point that is too often missed in internet discussions.

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I'd like to share the Eastern theology on Original Sin that I was taught (I'm quoting the teacher):

It all starts with the understanding of "original sin." The West following Augustine's teaching states that everyone is born into the world with the stain of "original sin" on their soul. This "actual sin" on a person's soul must be removed at baptism for one to become "sinless" and to get to Heaven. This led to the development of the "unofficial" Roman Catholic teaching on Limbo (Babies who die without baptism can not go to Heaven, but go to "Limbo" where they enjoy a "physical" happiness, but are deprived of the beatific vision of God).

Eastern theology teaches that people are born into the world with "original sin," which is not an actual sin on their souls, but a tendency towards sinning. Therefore, a baby is sinless. Babies are baptized, so that from their earliest age, they may be brought into the fullness of union with God through Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Eucharist. These three Mysteries of Initiation, especially ongoing reception of communion as an infant will help to steer the child and eventually the young adult away from sin and towards the good.

As a result, the East never needed to define an "Immaculate Conception" of the Mother of God, because according to Eastern theology, she was born without any actual sin on her soul, like every other child. What is unique about her is the fact that she never sinned her entire lifetime, unlike all of us.

So the Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, believe the Mother of God is sinless at her birth, just like Roman Catholics believe, but there is no need to define an "Immaculate Conception" because our understanding of original sin is different from Western theology. Same result, just two different approaches to it.

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Originally Posted by Doro
I'd like to share the Eastern theology on Original Sin that I was taught (I'm quoting the teacher):
...
Get a new teacher. At the very least, consider these words, their meaning, and consequences:

Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
I confess/profess one baptism unto/into/for the remission/forgiveness of sins.

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Eastern theology teaches that people are born into the world with "original sin," which is not an actual sin on their souls, but a tendency towards sinning.

I'm not even sure we're born with the tendency to sin, unless you mean that as one grows to maturity and the will is developed that moves us to sin. What about those who never develop the will, can they sin? I think there's more to these questions than we may at first think. Certainly everyone is subject to mortality and therefore the effect of the Fall.

Spotless itself can certainly have varying interpretations as well which I mentioned in another thread.

I also know of essentially no doctrine on any of this either.

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